Leaving a harbour at night

[Poignard]

For the OP, I was thinking along those lines but located on the mast spreaders.

Good grief! People will think they're being attacked by low-flying aircraft.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

For the OP, I was thinking along those lines but located on the mast spreaders.

And if I were coming the other way, I'd be cursing you for destroying my ability to see where I was going.

On a night passage down the North sea, we encountered a support vessel of some kind. It was lit up like a Christmas tree, with incredibly bright working lights. The result was a) that our night vision was destroyed and b) that we couldn't see it's navigation lights and so had enormous difficulty working out which way to head to avoid it! We ended up closer to it that we liked, and I'm quite certain that no lookout on the support vessel could possibly see us. We should have showed up on their radar (I have a radar transponder), but the effect on our night vision was such that it impaired our ability to navigate appropriately. In confined waters with other obstacles, it would have been downright dangerous. As it was, I seriously considered reporting the incident to CHIRP .

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Ever been on the helm on a boat where there are some ....persons below deck blundering about with lit head torches, occasionally turning their gaze towards the companionway, or worse still sticking their heads out to ask if you want coffee?

 

[ip485]

In confined waters with other obstacles, it would have been downright dangerous. As it was, I seriously considered reporting the incident to CHIRP .

Hmm, perhaps you have never crossed some of the bays along the south coast?

Trawlers with very bright working lights lit up like Christmas trees are a very common sight. Trawlers coming back into harbours with halogens blazing are also common - and you might have thoguht they were so familiar with their route to home, lights would not be needed. At Dartmouth we had one that left his working lights on all night. There are about 10 crusier liners layed up at anchor as well at the moment, also lit up like Christmas trees.

In some ways I prefer to see the lights, with the amount of illumination they are very easy to see (regardless of radar) and stay appropriately clear, so it doenst bother me.

If you were to make reports I expect there would be a long string of them, and no one would take any notice at all.

I spent many years racing a large Swan in all weathers day and night. Fortunately I wasnt on board but one dark night they came storming up the solent, straight into one of the large can bouys. I know they should have seen it, bad navigation etc., but you could literally walk through the hole in the bow. The trouble is these theories are all very well, but when you hit something at night even going slowly it can cause a lot of damage. I have seen small boats literally in the middle of a channel with no lights or almost no lights with a guy or two fishing. Of course they shouldnt be there, but I hate to imagine broadsiding them even at a few knots. I am 26 tons and I know the damage would be substantial with people in the winter in freezing water. It is perhaps part of the reason why I am so wary of all the theories about night vision etc when I know there are some conditions I know I might not see some of these dangers and I am not prepared to take the risk especially as I see many smaller commercial vessels who seem to take the view that they prefer to use some forward lights at night, and they are doing this stuff all the time every week.

 

[Graham376]

One evening I had left the Chenal du Four heading north. I intended to spend the night in L'Abervrac'h

That's a place I wouldn't want to enter or leave in the dark. Have arrived and departed many places in the dark and on one occasion, thick fog made leaving even more interesting as the area outside the river was littered with pot/net markers all showing up on radar, except that one pot turned out to be a couple of lunatics in a small boat fishing without any lights. Not sure who had the biggest shock, them or us, as we cleared them by just a few metres.

 

[Graham376]

Hmm, perhaps you have never crossed some of the bays along the south coast?

Or the Irish Sea when fleets of trawlers are out and about all with very bright working lights.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Or the Irish Sea when fleets of trawlers are out and about all with very bright working lights.

Hmm, perhaps you have never crossed some of the bays along the south coast?

Trawlers with very bright working lights lit up like Christmas trees are a very common sight. Trawlers coming back into harbours with halogens blazing are also common - and you might have thoguht they were so familiar with their route to home, lights would not be needed. At Dartmouth we had one that left his working lights on all night. There are about 10 crusier liners layed up at anchor as well at the moment, also lit up like Christmas trees.

In some ways I prefer to see the lights, with the amount of illumination they are very easy to see (regardless of radar) and stay appropriately clear, so it doenst bother me.

If you were to make reports I expect there would be a long string of them, and no one would take any notice at all.

I spent many years racing a large Swan in all weathers day and night. Fortunately I wasnt on board but one dark night they came storming up the solent, straight into one of the large can bouys. I know they should have seen it, bad navigation etc., but you could literally walk through the hole in the bow. The trouble is these theories are all very well, but when you hit something at night even going slowly it can cause a lot of damage. I have seen small boats literally in the middle of a channel with no lights or almost no lights with a guy or two fishing. Of course they shouldnt be there, but I hate to imagine broadsiding them even at a few knots. I am 26 tons and I know the damage would be substantial with people in the winter in freezing water. It is perhaps part of the reason why I am so wary of all the theories about night vision etc when I know there are some conditions I know I might not see some of these dangers and I am not prepared to take the risk especially as I see many smaller commercial vessels who seem to take the view that they prefer to use some forward lights at night, and they are doing this stuff all the time every week.

In all cases, they are in breach of Colregs if displaying lights that make it impossible to see their navigation lights, as was the case for the vessel we encountered. See Rule 20(b).

 

[ip485]

In all cases, they are in breach of Colregs if displaying lights that make it impossible to see their navigation lights, as was the case for the vessel we encountered. See Rule 20(b).

I think this would be very difficult to argue.

I think you should be showing port and starboard at the front and white at the back with a steaming light. With the steaming light on the mast, white at the back anyway, it is only a question of whether the port starboard are visible. Depending on where a forward pointing light is positioned I doubt the port and starboard lights could not be seen or would be obscured as long as they were sufficiently bright?

I totally agree it would be unreasonable to confuse any oncoming vessel but with a switch at the helm it really wouldnt be that difficult to switch off the light while the vessels pass.

I have passed plenty of well lit trawlers and their red and green have been clearly visisble. All the ferries in the solent also come to mind which are also lit up to the nines even when crossing the solent - no sign of dousing the lights.

I find that even with bright deck lights the reds and greens still stand out but perhaps you werent that close or the nav. lgihts were of poor quality?

 

[RupertW]

I think this would be very difficult to argue.

I think you should be showing port and starboard at the front and white at the back with a steaming light. With the steaming light on the mast, white at the back anyway, it is only a question of whether the port starboard are visible. Depending on where a forward pointing light is positioned I doubt the port and starboard lights could not be seen or would be obscured as long as they were sufficiently bright?

I totally agree it would be unreasonable to confuse any oncoming vessel but with a switch at the helm it really wouldnt be that difficult to switch off the light while the vessels pass.

I have passed plenty of well lit trawlers and their red and green have been clearly visisble. All the ferries in the solent also come to mind which are also lit up to the nines even when crossing the solent - no sign of dousing the lights.

I find that even with bright deck lights the reds and greens still stand out but perhaps you werent that close or the nav. lgihts were of poor quality?

I have many times encountered fishing boats and liners where the red or green was impossible to pick out. Not a big problem with liners as their two white lights made things obvious and to be honest only barely an extra problem with fishing boats as a red or green light means very little as speed and direction can change at the drop of a hat.

 

[LadyInBed]

And if I were coming the other way, I'd be cursing you for destroying my ability to see where I was going.

True, that would be the case with a deck level light pointing forward, but not the case with a light pointing down at say 45° from the spreader.

 

[zoidberg]

I also fly a bit, and nght landings take a little while to adjust to, especially when all the runway lights are dimmed or turned off.

I find myself wondering what sort of flying you're doing, and where, into 'fields where the runway lights are turned off....
....and what you're carrying.

But then, I probably know.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

True, that would be the case with a deck level light pointing forward, but not the case with a light pointing down at say 45° from the spreader.

Any light bright enough to help you would be detrimental to the night vision of a person coming towards you. Night vision is not quickly acquired and is VERY sensitive, even to indirect light. Even instrument lights must be turned down to their absolute minimum setting to be acceptable, and they are designed with night vision in mind.

Perhaps a lot of people don't realise how well you can see with fully dark adjusted vision, and how sensitive that vision is to any bright light source?

 

[Graham376]

I find myself wondering what sort of flying you're doing, and where, into 'fields where the runway lights are turned off....
....and what you're carrying. But then, I probably know.

Not drug running but wave flying in a glider one time, I nearly came to grief by leaving descent too late. Ground looks quite light from height but, the lower you get, the darker it becomes and height judgment disappears. Used most of the uneven (unlit) grass airfield length, just kept easing the stick back to feel for the ground with the tailskid. CFI wasn't happy, gave me a bollocking and wanted to know if I'd been eating carrots

 

[ip485]

No, not the drugs! You do practice landings at night with the landing lights off, and the runway lights turned down to min. illumination or off, it is all part of the training and currency.

I agree you can see surprsingly well at night once your eyes have adjusted but there are limits. Realistically, as long as you realise this and have turned down all extraneous illumination, you either can see, or you cant and it is probably unhelpful to kind yourself you can!

 

[zoidberg]

You do practice landings at night with the landing lights off, and the runway lights turned down to min. illumination or off, it is all part of the training and currency. I agree you can see surprsingly well at night once your eyes have adjusted but there are limits. Realistically, as long as you realise this and have turned down all extraneous illumination, you either can see, or you cant

Yes. I was thinking about 'no lights insertion' of wee men wi' big rucsacs, by means of green-painted helos.
Some pilots have night-vision acuity/adaptation which is markedly better than others and, in the days before CavNav/NightVision Binoculars were any good, even the low light from essential flight instruments disturbed the adaptation. Hence, 'rad-alt' to about 10-15 feet in the hover, then one of us hanging out the side door with a small red-lensed handtorch pointed down, talking the wheels down the last few feet.

Sometimes, those 'wee men' with their big bergans would lie on their backs in the shape of a 'NATO T' ( field landing lights ), shining their own wee red torches up. There were problems with that.... such as putting the wheels down on 'something soft', with 5000kg of Puma behind them. Not at all easy in a gusty wind or a sleetstorm.