Lead Acid, AGM vs Lithium Ion batteries

[coopec]

I am going to need to install batteries before very long. I have been doing a bit of research and have found L-ion batteries are quite a bit more expensive initially but offer a lot of advantages including life, light weight, storage capacity and efficiency. The source of information is: https://nexgenbattery.com/lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-batteries/

Has any reader had experience with L-ion batteries? Has anyone got any thoughts (apparently they have overcome the tendency for them to explode and burn fiercely) Apparently I'd have to install a lead acid battery for starting as well

Clive Cooper

 

[duncan99210]

I've looked at this a couple of times and I agree that there are significant advantages to using LiFePO4 batteries in terms of their technical advances over lead acid. However, as yet the unit cost of the LiFePO4 batteries is such that I cannot afford the additional initial outlay. I currently have a 500 amp hr bank, which I could replace with a, say, 250/300 amp hour LiFePO4 bank. Using the prices from here https://www.batterymasters.co.uk/li...MI36PBmKHD2gIVg58bCh0K-Av6EAAYASAAEgIWlPD_BwE that'd cost me the best part of £2300 whereas I can replace my existing bank for somewhere round about £500.
I'd be prepared to spend perhaps £1200 on a replacement LiFePO4 bank on the presumption that I'd get more life out of it than a lead acid bank but not nearly four times as much. So, as yet, the economics don't work for me but I'm keeping an eye on the prices and perhaps in due course it'll make sense.

 

[macd]

Coopec: LiFePO4 (which, as duncan99210 notes, is the technology to go with) has been taken up most actively by cruisers in the US. You'll find more information and practical experience than you know what to do with here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It's a simple calculation when the price falls below 3 times that of lead acid it becomes economically viable providing one can afford the initial outlay. To actually get some economic benefit then the price needs to get closer to double that of lead acid but again the initial outlay will high. The big downside would be having to have two charging regimes and of course avoiding total discharge as once that happens you bin them and start again.

 

[KellysEye]

It would be worth considering this: http://www.halfords.com/motoring/bu...-year-guarantee-hsb010-silver-12v-car-battery

 

[VicS]

It would be worth considering this: http://www.halfords.com/motoring/bu...-year-guarantee-hsb010-silver-12v-car-battery

But you could do much better pricewise, for example

https://www.mdsbattery.co.uk/yuasa-ybx5100-silver-12v-100-car-battery.html

 

[macd]

But you could do much better pricewise, for example

https://www.mdsbattery.co.uk/yuasa-ybx5100-silver-12v-100-car-battery.html

Either might be expensive to ship to Perth. It's not the Scottish one.

 

[rotrax]

First Mate and I keep a steel Hartley 32 in Wellington. It has a starter battery plus two house batteries. The house batteries were US, pricing new ones caused me to pause.

Asking around the Marina's liveaboards extracted the info that a power specialist not far away had used high spec. and quality AGM's from office computer back up power supplies available at very sensible money. The expected life is 10 years. The ones for sale were 5 years in service and had been tested and pronounced A1.

I use, at home in the UK, as a bench 12v supply, a 25 AH Yuasa from a similar source. It is now 18 years old according to the date stamp. For five seasons it lived in a motorcycle top box working a bilge pump in our heavy tender to clear rainwater. It never needed charging all season.

I purchased two 75 AH AGM's from UPS Power-$125.00 NZ Dollars each. So, about £125.00 for the pair. When I took the old batteries to weigh them in I got $47.00 back-so not too bad.

So far, on Ella, our old Hartley, perfect. Voltage always around 12.9 when we first reach the boat after losing the float voltage from the solar panels.

So, in my personal direct experience good quality AGM's last well, better than wet cells. Our previous boat had eight year old AGM's-Lifelines- that were showing slight signs of losing capacity, but they were hard worked as the boat was used all year and lived on for the sailing season. Previous vessels with wet cells had problems with low capacity after being left for four or five weeks without use-to the extent where I got pretty good with hand cranking the reliable old 1GM10!

After purchasing the two used AGM's from UPS Power in Wellington the boat was used for day sailing and a couple of nights aboard without a power hook up, so not a very heavy use of battery power. However, the voltage with no power draw was always above 12.8 even at night with no input from the solar and interior lamps and water pumps-and the electric heads-in use.

That will do for me! Used AGM's from a similar source may be available in Perth-might be worth a bit of research.

 

[coopec]

It would be worth considering this: http://www.halfords.com/motoring/bu...-year-guarantee-hsb010-silver-12v-car-battery

Now I'm confused. That Yuasa battery is not L-ion is it?

 

[pvb]

Now I'm confused. That Yuasa battery is not L-ion is it?

His posts can be confusing. It's not Li-ion, just an ordinary maintenance-free wet lead-acid car battery (at a very uncompetitive price).

 

[macd]

Now I'm confused. That Yuasa battery is not L-ion is it?

No, it's lead-acid. I suspect he was picking up on your comment that "Apparently I'd have to install a lead acid battery for starting as well".

Incidentally I'm not at all sure that a lead-acid starter battery would be necessary, although perhaps your advice is something to do with charging regimes. Suitably-specified LiFePO4s are perfectly capable of delivering the necessary CCA. There's an example of just such a starter battery here: https://www.yeppon.it/p-bc-batteria...MI-YToldDD2gIVjlQYCh2a_QwUEAQYBCABEgJt1_D_BwE
(I'm not suggesting you order from Italy: it just happened to pop up when I searched )

More info also here: https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/products/12v-lithium-ion-starter-battery/

No doubt there will be more hands-on comment on the link I mentioned earlier.

 

[rotrax]

Our current boat has six AGM 110 AH batteries. Four for the house bank, two year old Lifelines, one for the Generator, a nine year old AGM Lifeline from OE and one for the engine, a budget Chinese AGM, but with spiral wound technology. It is slightly lighter than the lifelines, but not by much. The engine is a 110 BHP Yanmar turbo diesel.

The inexpensive Chinese AGM starts the donk instantly. For many years Island Packets have supplied AGM Lifelines as OE, including the starter battery.
A dedicated wet cell appears to be uneccessary as a dedicated starter battery if the AGM is of a good size and specification. Should there be a problem, the control panel has a parallel button to bring the house bank into circuit. We have never needed it with this boat, and only once on the previous one.

 

[pvb]

A dedicated wet cell appears to be uneccessary as a dedicated starter battery if the AGM is of a good size and specification.

Quite right, AGMs are fine for engine starting. The AGM batteries which Bavaria fitted in my boat are Exide "Stop/Start" batteries, designed for cars with automatic stop/start technology.

 

[macd]

Quite right, AGMs are fine for engine starting. The AGM batteries which Bavaria fitted in my boat are Exide "Stop/Start" batteries, designed for cars with automatic stop/start technology.

Surely there's little difference between AGM and flooded in that respect? Some are designed for traction service, some for starting, others in-between. They'll do the other job, but perhaps not optimally. The ubiquitous T105 comes with no CCA rating at all, but starts engines perfectly well, as Trojan say it can.

 

[rotrax]

Surely there's little difference between AGM and flooded in that respect? Some are designed for traction service, some for starting, others in-between. They'll do the other job, but perhaps not optimally. The ubiquitous T105 comes with no CCA rating at all, but starts engines perfectly well, as Trojan say it can.

Perhaps it is to do with the older leisure batteries that were not able to give off large currents quickly, as in starting a large diesel on a cold day. Those boats fitted with such batteries as a house bank often had a dedicated starter battery.

Technology has improved, but the perception remains.

 

[davidej]

Perhaps it is to do with the older leisure batteries that were not able to give off large currents quickly, as in starting a large diesel on a cold day. Those boats fitted with such batteries as a house bank often had a dedicated starter battery.

Technology has improved, but the perception remains.

I think the reason most people (ie me) fit a dedicated engine battery is to make sure it is always fully charged and not subject to the drain of lights, nav instruments etc, etc. This means that even if the house batteries are low, you can always start the engine.

 

[rotrax]

I think the reason most people (ie me) fit a dedicated engine battery is to make sure it is always fully charged and not subject to the drain of lights, nav instruments etc, etc. This means that even if the house batteries are low, you can always start the engine.

Yes exactly. But, the discussion is the type of starter battery, not the fact you have a dedicated one.

 

[TQA]

If you go down the Lithium Ion route remember you need a suitable charger and for long life especially if you go for full charges it is essential that it incorporates a system that allows you to balance charge each cell individually.

See https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9c2d/14421df5d9d332f4af8c0bd51123f024e52b.pdf

Such balance charging systems are hard to find especially for multiple battery marine use

 

[Trundlebug]

Just to add my two penneth.

You can extend the life of standard lead acid batteries considerably at relatively low cost.
This will of course screw up your economics calculations vs other options, but who said life was simple?

http://www.megapulse.net/

No connection, just a satisfied customer. I don't have the latest VEE version but an earlier Mk4 which I have just fitted to my bank of 3x 8 year old 110Ah leisure batteries. I discovered on our Easter break that although nominally showing fully charged they went flat (down to 10.4v) after withdrawing just 12Ah.

It'll take 6-8 weeks but I'm hoping and expecting (after previous experience) that they'll be much restored by the summer.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It's a simple calculation when the price falls below 3 times that of lead acid it becomes economically viable providing one can afford the initial outlay.

I agree, more or less. At the moment, 12V lead-acid costs about £1 per Ah while Li-ion costs about £10 per Ah. However, since you can fully discharge Li-ion but shouldn't really make a habit of taking lead-acid below 50%, that's £2 vs £10 per usable Ah. Too much of a difference for me, but when Li-ion is effectively only twice as much - ie when I can buy 100Ah for £400, I'll go for it like a shot.

I expect that point in about five years from now. Here's a useful chart from Bloomberg, showing the last few years' prices: