You’d stand out round here. Very very few boats sail to windward. We’re a real nuisance, tacking backwards and forwards across the western Solent. Our VMG is about 6kn in 12 kn of wind, meaning most motoring folk going straight into the wind have us repeatedly cross them. I have known them to get fed up giving way.
We don't tend to spend much time tacking in the Caribbean, but we have often had to do long passages upwind. E.g. BVI to Bequia, which took nearly four days, hard on the wind for every mile. There's no point waiting for a better wind direction when you're in the trade winds!
That surely depends on whether wanting a floating caravan or a sailing boat.
Obviously, we feel the same. Tearing a hole in the ocean at 20kn is why you buy a Dragonfly, though they perform well in all conditions. If we were buying a cat, we wouldn’t compromise on performance. We’d sell the house, buy somewhere smaller and have a high performance dagger board boat, in our case a Dazcat, because they’re great, British, Darren is a great guy, I am from Plymouth originally and my wife is Cornish. Other performance cats are available. Bt it’s a big financial hit compared to a Lagoon. You have to want and need that performance to spend the extra half a million on it
Though in fact the main reason we have not is more practical. We have to fit our boat into Yarmouth harbour, and Scott, the harbour master would have kittens if we turned up in a 40ft x 25ft cat.
No you wouldn't. Most cats get shipped back from the Caribbean. There is nothing better than a catamaran down wind in the trades for comfort, but coming back is totally different. Those that do come back generally have a tough time. The charter cats that do seasons in both Med and Caribbean generally carry huge amounts of fuel and motor most of the way back as they can't point upwind.
The Lagoon 52 is 26 tonnes, light ship. Anybody that thinks these boats sail well to windward hasnt seen them in the flash.
Have you been on the Nautitech 40 open? The accommodation in the saloon is limited but the cockpit is incredible. More than twice the size of the lagoon 40 cockpit. The concept for sailing in the tropics is excellent. The cockpit can be fully enclosed even when at sea. The only thing I don't like is the wheels are right out on the aft corners. Super exposed and terrible forward visibility. Not dissimilar to Catanas an some Outremers but they do benefit from better forward visibility.
Sorry but that's an empirically incorrect statement . Many cannot but my own stub keel Prout Quasar will do so happily, comfortably even and quite fast and has done so many times. Ok, there are not a lot of very fine hulled, sub 9 tonne, 50 foot cats but this one (and others) has been around for 40 years and will sail to 35 degrees in big winds and seas and do so fast . I did Dunkirk to Dover in 4 hours port to port at around 40 degrees the whole way and 25-30 knot winds with waves of 2m plus and had a fantastic sail a couple of years ago. Sure a Lagoon of FP will not manage but to say no cat without dagger boards will do so is just wrong
A little like for like…. A Lagoon 38 is 10.2 tonnes light ship. A Dazcat 1195 is 4.5 tonnes light ship. A Dragonfly 40 is between 5 and 5.9 tonnes, model dependent. That is why we’d pick the Dazcat. At that size, to us it makes more sense than a folding tri. The Dazcat can carry 3 tons of payload. Enough for us, by some margin, even with full tanks. It’s plain that the Lagoon is built down to a price, and performance is the first to suffer. Maybe the structure is next. But then, they’re half the price of a Dazcat, which is a carbon reinforced dagger board boat. The 1195 is about 7% faster on MOCRA rating than us. And they still win, as regularly as you would expect in a handicap fleet.
Nobody is still racing a Prout, so it’s hard to disprove you. I find it pretty hard to believe that a stub keel cat with a rig like yours will out point a 7/8ths rigged tri with a carbon mast and sails, a centreboard, and a very streamlined profile. We can’t point to 35 degrees, but we could do Dunkirk to Dover in 4 hours close hauled in reasonable conditions. That is 10 kn average. It’s a big ask. If it was 40 degrees apparent, we’d be off in a cloud of float smoke and over the horizon in 40 minutes of course.
To clarify we can sail at 35 degrees - not at 10 knots though - if there is a decent blow we have made 7 knots at 35 degrees though there was maybe a bit of current with us ; not much though. Also, not sure how you racers term things but we only read apparent wind so all my figures are on that which of course will be brought forward of true by our speed but we have no instruments to record true wind (or a log to check current, just what the tide stream charts tell us it should be as a log would weigh more and slow us down
)
I have sailed in company with many friends with mini keel catamarans upwind. These are guys who are good sailors.To clarify we can sail at 35 degrees - not at 10 knots though - if there is a decent blow we have made 7 knots at 35 degrees though there was maybe a bit of current with us ; not much though. Also, not sure how you racers term things but we only read apparent wind so all my figures are on that which of course will be brought forward of true by our speed but we have no instruments to record true wind (or a log to check current, just what the tide stream charts tell us it should be as a log would weigh more and slow us down
As I said Dunkirk was at 40 degrees most of the time and I think the top speed we saw in the gusts was 14 knots but average was 10.something for 43 miles total distance. I guess I should also say when I rebuilt her I got her down to around 8000kg (less now as I did more lightening of everything this year ) which helps . I would expect on the same day a Dragonfly would be 30% faster though I did arrive dry and reasonably warm . Certainly there were other cats in that era with stub keels (and even the strange asymmetrical hulls on some) that could point well and make headway but they were few and far between I will grant you. Most people forget that amongst the vast range of sturdy caravans Prout built the Ocean Ranger 45 and the original Quasar ( the later Espace version gained 3000kg and was a dog) which were , for cruising cats , very quick and sailable .
Ah, clarity. Close hauled, our APPARENT wind angle is 28, plus or minus depending on sea state. At that angle we are 40 off the true wind, and achieving max VMG to windward. At 40 apparent we’ll be on a beam reach flying a Code 0 and doing maybe wind speed plus 10%. Until we furl the code sail and start reefing. About 16kn for the code sail, 18 for the first reef.To clarify we can sail at 35 degrees - not at 10 knots though - if there is a decent blow we have made 7 knots at 35 degrees though there was maybe a bit of current with us ; not much though. Also, not sure how you racers term things but we only read apparent wind so all my figures are on that which of course will be brought forward of true by our speed but we have no instruments to record true wind (or a log to check current, just what the tide stream charts tell us it should be as a log would weigh more and slow us down
As I said Dunkirk was at 40 degrees most of the time and I think the top speed we saw in the gusts was 14 knots but average was 10.something for 43 miles total distance. I guess I should also say when I rebuilt her I got her down to around 8000kg (less now as I did more lightening of everything this year ) which helps . I would expect on the same day a Dragonfly would be 30% faster though I did arrive dry and reasonably warm . Certainly there were other cats in that era with stub keels (and even the strange asymmetrical hulls on some) that could point well and make headway but they were few and far between I will grant you. Most people forget that amongst the vast range of sturdy caravans Prout built the Ocean Ranger 45 and the original Quasar ( the later Espace version gained 3000kg and was a dog) which were , for cruising cats , very quick and sailable .
Yep these are impressive boats - I've sailed in a couple and some of the Corsair too - there is no comparison ...
I can't argue as I've only sailed in one mono ever - a 40 or 42 foot Beneteau and it was quite quick and very tippy - I don't get why people would want to live on the lean for hours or days on end in so little space but I fully understand your reasons for changing to one in your situation. Would your lottery win boat be a Kraken mono or an Outremer cat (or Dazcat or ORC etc) though?
I'm pretty certain he would keep his Van Der Stadt
