La Rochelle disaster

Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

As a professional delivery skipper I agree. I am totally obsessed with weather windows. However, we can be under pressure from owners etc (last March, delivering north across Biscay, the onboard owner expressed a strong desire to meet 'v.heavy' weather-to test his new boat).
My priority is to get myself, my crew & the boat delivered safely home. I have no patience with heroics or the so called romance of heavy weather sailing & clubhouse yarns - there is no negotiation regarding safety when I am the skipper. (this may sound high handed, but I make no apologies - thankfully I haven't lost anyone yet)
Considering the remarks regarding the capabilities of a Jenneau in these conditions, read again the pre-xmas thread 'windward in 20 m/s (appr. F 8-9)' with some of the 'heroic' claims made there. Anyone who may have been out in a F9 + will shudder when remembering how bloody awful it was & how impossible it can be even in a heavy displacement boat.

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Re: A few thoughts

It's sad when lives are lost. It's easy to criticise and condem. It also easy to forget the poor decisions that we've made, but scraped home by the skin of our teeth. I'm assuming that these young men enjoyed their sailing and had a clear eye'd view of the likely risks involved.

If you are involved in commercial seagoing you are going to find yourself under pressures. From supertanker skippers to a guy on an 18ft crab boat your decisions are coloured by different imperitives to the leisure sailor. I've argued here before that youth need not prevent someone being a good skipper but it often takes maturity to stand up to outside pressures from owners, agents or delivery companies.

Turning up to a strange boat, often with a crew of strangers and maybe in a sailing area that is unfamiliar needs good organization and loads of experience. It is rare on a delivery to have sufficient time for all of the pre sailing inspection and equipment learning that you have to attempt. A forecast gale is often a good excuse to spend quality time checking and stowing.

Leaving anywhere without a clear, all weather, alternative port should not be undertaken lightly. You'd need to be confident that you had time to turn into searoom.

F6 to F8 is the hardest forecast to deal with. Your damned if you do and if you don't.

Les Sables is a nasty place to hit with a gale up your chuff. I've only ever come out of there and you can get into the rough stuff quite quickly. It stays rough after a blow too.

I was surprised that the lifeboat suppliment had so many deliveries in it. I'd have thought that bareboat charter would result in more shouts. I'm presuming that delivery skippers have more extreme accidents.

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Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

Accountants, lawyers and bank managers like all professionals, including delivery skippers, make mistakes – it’s a feature of the human condition.

Without wishing to comment on the merits or demerits of this poor man’s decisions it is inevitable that more miles you do at sea, or on the road come to that, the greater the likelihood of encountering problems. It’s simple statistics. Robin Knox-Johnson and Bernard Moitessier have certainly covered the distance, although probably not done more miles than an experienced modern day delivery skipper, and have certainly had their ‘moments’, but no one’s disputing their competence.

Obviously there is the odd rogue individual, but some of the comment being disseminated through this forum is specious and frankly insensitive nonsense. There is no question that the delivery skippers of my acquaintance are responsible, competent and caring in doing an extraordinarily difficult and demanding, as well as under rewarded, job. Were it not so they could not survive –financially or otherwise.


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Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

"Another area of concern is the state of the marine insurance market and whether or not insurers are obliged to be informed if a vessel is being subjected to a delivery contract."
You may be interested in the following from an 'agency' dealing in delivery work - "The other problem has been with insurance. Owners' Ins companies are sometimes reluctant to insure deliveries, saying that we should have our own delivery skipper insurance. As you may know, Towergate ceased offering cover to skippers in February 2003 and although Sailing Today (recently reported new cover available at £ 300 pa , but this is prematutre, as the policy wording has gone back to the lawyers. Otherwise, it appears that only RYA Trg Centres and Yacht Brokers seem to be able to get cover. Do you know otherwise? "

As you will see, delivery insurance is a problem. The previous insurance being mentioned, was specifically for 'gross negligance', whatever they may decide that constitutes. I insist that all owners inform their insurance company, with sight of a hard copy of their acceptance before undertaking a delivery.
Crew are a difficult area, which some major sailing companies deal with by calling them "volunteer crew", presumably sailing at their own risk. Perhaps there are some insurance/legal experts out there who may be able to enlighten us on the facts etc.

Since none of us were there when the decision to sail was taken by the unfortunate people involved in the Biscay disaster, we cannot be in a position to comment or criticise in advance of the French enquiry. Even then it will be 20/20 hindsight. We have all made good/bad decisions, some we have been lucky to get away with. Sometimes very lucky we did. These guys were unlucky & didn't.



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Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

All the comments that are being made here are, of course, from the depths of the innermost of us. However, many that read and certainly write in this and other Forums on all sorts of media, are concerned whenever a tragedy happens that concerns an area of what we share: marine and maritime affairs.

I write here for two reasons: (1) I am able to direct, officially, to the appropriate authorities any global concern that has ramifications far more reaching than the forum raises itself. Hence why I made the suggestion that the topic of "Deliveries" be made a forum in its own right. (2) The incident in question and the timing of the departure and eventual catastrophe has not been discussed and, neither should it be on this forum, because as you rightly say, no one was there. However, here I am on Isle de Re just a few miles across the bay, as the seagull flies. The Saturday in question had many here taking decisions about security of their own vessels (myself included here as I was yacht-sitting). At mid-night the bridge from La Rochelle to Isle de Re was restricted in its use. At 5am I was on my way to La Rochelle seeing much damage on the Island. With all this in mind, what time did the yacht in question actually leave Les Sables? And, in which direction?

From the two reasons that I make above, the first has wider ramifications and will be looked at in greater depth and, for now, the comments that each forumite makes towards this is very useful to air their own feelings, while it allows readers to share others feelings. The second is because I was "close" and being affected by the same conditions and reading the same notices that would have been posted at Les Sables. Like others, I know the area very well and the difficulties between Isle d'yeu and Les Sables. It would have been, if it were known to those involved, been better to head for the shelter between Isle de Re and the mainland. There were a vast number of fishing boats out there when daylight arrived and seeing such a collection. But, as you rightly state, who knows what there thinking was. The investigations will reveal all and as we wait, the French authorities will leave no stone unturned because of two aspects: (1) Death and (2) an under 18 crew member.

Please keep the comments coming in and share wharever feeling and observations that can be made.

Martin


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Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

I mostly agree. But everyone can air their views on the forums - i think you are making the point that their vailidity is lessened if they weren't there - it's more speculative.

I understand that they were heading south towards canaries then transat to the BVI - to be chartered by Moorings in Tortola.

It is not clear (to me anyway) if they had a mob/death after turning back (not a great idea, and a really bad one to try entering the harbour) OR if the mob/death came first and was the reason they turned back - in which case turning back is fairly understandable i suppose. I mean, many might not feel willing to carry on - then what? - put in a phone call on reaching spain?


I ubnderstood that the best route was to stay mils ou of biscay - it's only short-range powerboats that need to hop along in the rougher onshore weather, no?



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Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

Just to clarify the direction they were heading in. We know what their routing was to have been, but I was thinking more of what they were doing locally as they left Les Sables. On leaving the port itself, there are two possibilities: the first is the dog-legged exit around a sand bank and the most direct to the open sea or, secondly, the inshore southerly route. It is why the other question that I posed was at what time did they leave? Both exits have there respective problems and difficulties, and as you say was there a mob in the first instance. This information will be now known, but has not be released as far as I can ascertain.

Martin

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Deliveries: The Greater Debate

It is important, irrespective of the different and controversial points of view that will be made, that an open and balanced debate is given to the subject of the delivery of vessels.

Whatever your point of view and the direction from which you are coming from, much will be gained from this process, while at the same time it will become an information centre to enable a study of all aspects associated with Deliveries.

Whether you are a vessel owner, delivery company, skipper or crew. Insurer, lawyer, coastguard, maritime authority or politician, from wherever you are in the world, let this debate be open to all.

There are many issues to be raised, where areas of concern and responsibilities are loose and have no legal base. The ramifications of the poor or lax and sometimes non-existent regulation of deliveries are slowly emerging, but only from when disaster strikes. History is full of incidents, other than in sailing, when something positive is done, but only after a number of deaths have occurred. Does it have to take a death to secure a recognised set of regulations to oversee a particular type of business? The answer of course is no, but then we are in the real world and subject to whatever regulations, laws and terms and conditions that are laid before us or often not, imposed upon us.

Those that go about their normal daily commercial business, undertaking deliveries to the four corners of the earth, will not mind some form of regulation, if it is there to protect all concerned. There will be those that will seek out the loopholes, thus placing in jeopardy those who unknowingly take part in the activity and, thus, may not be protected. There will be reputations at stake as well. What of the new yachts, straight off the production line, hence to be delivered to some near or distant part, which but for the builder's reputation, is taken at face value not knowing if there is a fault on one of them. Minimum equipment levels is just one other concern and the list of what should be looked at is only the tip of the iceberg.

The clock has started ticking on this debate. Are you really concerned about the vessel delivery industry? Whatever level this may be from, whether commercial delivery company or self employed delivery skipper, to the owner seeking someone to deliver to your boat. Or are you an insurer, finance company or bank having an interest in the said vessel, or the lawyer that will be saddled with looking at the small print (if there is a contract involved).

The regulars of these forums that write prolifically within them and, those many, many readers that are sometimes bemused with what is being requested on them, perhaps you have something to say. There are many who read these forums that will have a profound interest in what is being said here, but cannot enter into comment for fear of ridicule, or wish to protect their identity. I ask all of you to have your say. The UN agency responsible for maritime affairs the International Maritime Organisation - IMO is based in London, the only main agency to be based within the UK. This Forum is UK based, but the users of them are from around the globe with an interest in sailing from different points of view. The boat delivery industry is international, for there to be an international standard, it would mean that each country would have to adopt and incorporate in to national legislation whatever legislation was prescribed. This process is long, but is it needed or should individual countries take their own actions. This is something to be looked at when we get an understanding of where the industry is today.Please, have your say and encourage others to have theirs.

Martin


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Re: Deliveries: The Greater Debate

erm .. are'nt you jumping the gun a bit? It may be that the fact that this was a delivery is completely incidental to the causes of this tragic accident.

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Re: Deliveries: The Greater Debate

Sounds as if you've had a bad experience somewhere along the line. Care to enlighten us?

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Don\'t see a need for more regulation

I see this incident as similar to other marine accidents, but different in that life was lost before the rescue services were able to assist. I would not get over concerned that this was a delivery crew. It was sailors setting off on a voyage who, with the benefit of hindsight, look as is they made the wrong decision. However had they not broached or whatever on maybe one particular wave they might have got away with it and got down the coast ahead of the worst of the weather. How many times have any of us weighed up a return voyage at weekend and decided to go for it even though the weather was a bit "iffy"? With regularly going over the Deben bar there have been occasions that I have done the trip with 4 or 5 competant blokes with me when I would have not made the trip if the wife and teenage kids had been crew. I am not expecting any revolutionary revealations to come out of the enquiry. I expect the lesson to be learnt is don't go out if the weather forcast is towards the limit for your boat/experience.
I certainly do not think rules and regulations need to drawn up for folk delivering boats. There is enough commercial pressure from insurance companies who I assume will only give cover to people they deem competant. And every so often someone will get caught out. Sympathy for the family of the chap who drowned and who have to put with adverse comment.

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Re: Deliveries: The Greater Debate

Jimi:

To clarify this and for others who believe we are using the Les Sables disaster to highlight this.

The issues that are being and will be raised go far deeper than this one incident alone. There is no or intended acusation against those involved with this one incident. Many readers and those who contibute to this will, singularly, be aware of what is going on in this industry. Collectively and with all aspects covered we will begin to understand what actually is happening globally and for whatever reason. Suffice to say here that there are many incidents and that the individual comments will bring these out. For the record I am not in the delivery industry, know many that are and almost as many that fall out with the owner on some aspect or another of the delivery.

Excuse me for answering a couple of the contents of the thread ahead of yours.

Martin

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Around mid-day the skipper received from the La Capitainerie the published daily weather forecast of a SW F6-8 with Gusts. This was given in English and French.

The vessels heading was WSW to Cape Finnistere.

At 16h00 La Capitainerie received an imminent severe weather warning of F10 with gusts. The yacht had already departed.

It is now known that the yacht was 30 miles out when she turned back.

The same information was given on Navtex and VHF.

Martin

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