La Rochelle disaster

[doris]

Were the French weather forecasts really as bad as the newspapers say. ie. forecast 20-40 kts with a reality of 90 kts. If so it is an inaccuracy even worse than Michael Fish's in the 1987 hurricane! Seems easy to blame the skipper for a bad decision but if the forecasts really were that bad it has to be worrying. Especially as over the last few years I have found Meteo-France way better than out met office.

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[penfold]

It's winter in the north Atlantic, you're on a lee shore in Biscay, a F7 forecast, a scarey looking synoptic chart, and you're short-handed on a new and unfamiliar boat. I wouldn't go sailing, schedule or no schedule. Would you? Blaming the weather forecasters is missing the mark IMHO. Wait until the low rolls north, then go.

cheers,
david

<hr width=100% size=1>Gosh darn it, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue purttier than a twenty dollar whore!

 

[rhinorhino]

With all due sympathy to those who have lost loved ones, I have to agree with the frenchman quoted in the press. What on earth were they doing going to sea at all? And then turning back? From the press photos we can see that, as very often the case the hull is esentially intact. I hope the MCA will take a careful look at this incident.

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[circumnavigation]

We're based in St Martin, Isle de Re and the marine forecast was very accurate for the region. If you were referring to the British yacht where lives were lost, further up the coast near Sables... then it is difficult to comment, as we do not know where the skipper was getting his info from: I trust not from the UK! Meteo France and France Consult, when looking at the marine scenarios were very near accurate, but when I go to a secure military site, much of the information was the same. Many fishing boats actually came into the wet basin here, from the outer harbour, so I think that the French were sure of what was on the go.

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[ianj]

I see in today's 'Times' that the company concerned say that they have an excellent safety record. It would be interesting to know whether they have had any similar misadventures and what advice they gave to the crew about the weather outlook.

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[qsiv]

Have to agree - although I dont know that part of the coast well, there is a shortage of ports that I would choose to enter with something fresher than an onshore gale. The approaches to La Rochelle wouldnt have been any fun with the shallowing sea bed - Les Sables d'Olonne would be like trying to thread a needle whilst skiing - and when you succeeded the entrance must have been scary.

Up here in Jersey, it was blowing dogs off chains, and was well forecast. Boats in the harbours were swamped by waves breaking over the sea walls at Gorey and St Aubin. We chafed through one mooring line in the marina. The boat was trussed like a chicken - 7 different warps, all backed up with spares.

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[RupertW]

It's such a difficult one - I'd be the first to fly in with comments if the yacht had been wrecked and everyone had survived. Without knowing enough of the facts, any comments are bound to be full of assumptions, but I think a few things aren't too contentious - so...

The company does have a very good safety record - I've done a few deliveries with them, with some skippers as young as 24, including one cross-Atlantic from Les Sables, where I steered us out as I've been in and out of the port a few times in my own boats, and the skipper had not.

Sailing out into a F7 isn't unusual, even in boats far smaller than a 49 footer. It's part of the job, and a crew of 3 should be ample. 2 is often fine for a couple of weeks at sea between harbours.

My only confusion is turning back towards Les Sables when things got horrible. There are nasty waters around Les Barges, and the approach itself often has tumbling waves as the bay shallows a lot, then reflects waves back from the curved beach. The worst bit can be the turn, broadside onto the waves, to get into the harbour entrance. In lesser conditions than that, I've gone for shelter (from the waves) behind Ile de Yeu, and there are probably better places than that. Without knowing more, it's very hard to judge what made that decision the best one.








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[coco]

This information picked up from another french website (http://www.hisse-et-oh.com/).
One guy went to see the harbourmaster of the Sables d'Olonne yesterday and reported on the forum what the HM said (he was the last to talk to the crew before their departure):
1. The marine forecast posted (at the HM office) when the boat left said: "wind force 6 to 8 with gusts". An english version of the forecast was posted as well.
2. When the crew brought the boat to the fuel dock to get the tanks topped up just before their departure, the harbourmaster told them about the pessimistic outlook for the coming hours. They decided nevertheless to leave.
3. A BMS (special weather advisory) was received during the afternoon mentioning a strong gale with gusts.
4. Looking at the position where the yacht beached (north of Sables d'Olonne) it is possible, but not certain that a navigation error has occurred approaching the harbour.

Reading all the other stuff regarding this tragic accident, I gather that deciding to come back to the harbour was not a very wise decision. Several boats (including fishing boats) have foundered in this area trying to enter the harbour due to very difficult conditions in bad weather (heavy breaking seas).

It is easy to criticize (especially sitting in the warmth, typing on my keyboard), but two things look odd to me though:
-They were apparently not aware of the dire wind warnings announced by many media on the previous evening (French TV announced winds of 150 km/h in that area). I would assume that for such a trip, at least two sources covering a window of a few days would be essential.
-They did not appear to have worn a harness (I am not sure about a lifejacket)


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[Salty]

According to the Telegraph interview with the first mate yesterday, they had harnesses but cut the lifelines when the boat capsized as they were trapped underneath. The first-mate was wearing a life-jacket but had it ripped off by the waves.

Again, without knowing all the facts and feeling very sorry for the families concerned, one might question the wisdom of such a delivery at this time of year being undertaken by a 24, 23 and 17 year-old, at least one of whom had got their qualifications from a Fast Track scheme.

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[circumnavigation]

Delivery Crews: What Next?

It is always a very sad time when someone is lost at sea, no matter what the circumstances, but our respect for the families concerned, at this difficult time for them, must come first.

The number of incidents that involve delivery crews are certainly growing, or rather the number that reach the media have increased. Much information, on the activities of delivery crews, is now being reported to the maritime authorities the world over and I expect, within these forums, that we all know someone that is involved in the delivery of yachts. The yachting mags' small adds, for companies and individuals offering their services to deliver someone's pride and joy, are too numerous and each, no doubt, will state their individual reputations are well known too. On the other hand, there are the owners that for one reason or another out of necessity will use a delivery crew.

Many questions will need to be raised and answered and, it is for sure, the yacht delivery industry will be placed into a very difficult situation if, like other areas of the marine industry, it has to be regulated. If a delivery is undertaken for commercial financial gain then is it the responsibility of the delivery company/individual that signs the contract, for the safety of the vessel and its crew? Certainly the skipper will be responsible when the vessel is handed over to him/her and in charge until it is handed back to the other party of the contract. Of course behind this question are many more to do with the state of a vessel and its equipment, as well as the competency of the skippers and crews for the type of delivery being requested. Another area of concern is the state of the marine insurance market and whether or not insurers are obliged to be informed if a vessel is being subjected to a delivery contract.

Much discussion, debate and articles will be written on this in the forthcoming weeks, but all facets of the marine industry will be the better for it. Perhaps it would be appropriate to have a Forum on the subject itself, as this affects both the sail and the motor aspects of marine and, of course, the commercial and the leisure side where the two meet together.

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[Chris_Stannard]

Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

I was asked to make the third in a delivery crew last April to bring a boat back from Sweden. He was going as a passenger as he is not very experienced. the boat, 46 feet was new.

The skipper decided to sail, out of a narrow inlet and down a channel with rocks on either side, in poor visibility and with a Force 8 to 9 on the nose. He was all for pressing on although we started taking water in t engine room and would have continued had not the stern bearing run hot. The local Swedes in the pub that night asked were you the crazy English going out in that, no one sails from here in strong winds from the SW. It was the pressure of a schedule that caused him to sail and but for the defects would have pressed on at considerable risk to himself and the boat. We eventually left the boat there and I brought it back in May.

My own view is that delivery crews are no to be trusted unless you know them well and have an agreement about what they will and will not sail into.

<hr width=100% size=1>Chris Stannard

 

[circumnavigation]

Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

Hello Chris:

This is what has to be explored. Why? The situation that you state is just one of many, but who is the responsible one? The owner or the more experienced one, or the owner that is placing pressure on the commercial or individual deliverer to get his/her vessel where he wants it, in time for whatever the reason. From your writings and others on the Forums, many have more experience than some of the owners but, if you take advice from a professional, what or whoever that may be, while paying for that particular experience/expertise, you do not have to take that advice or accept the consequences. We pay lawyers to do our legal work, while our accountants count the beans and we pay them to do that. They pay the consequences should something go wrong. Contracted delivery circumstances can be no different, but how many of us do things for our friends etc, like helping to take a vessel from A to B and with our wisdom tell the person that you are doing it for, it might be better not to do this or that, but they dig the heels in, against your better judgement? Outside of this scenario, the contracted deliveries are the ones, first of all, to be aligned to regulation. I for one, in a professional capacity within one of the UN agencies will ask the IMO to look at this area of the marine industry. For sure, the MCA on advices from the MAIB could, within the UK, act on their own accord.

It is for this that I see that a separate Forum for all to have their say on this etc.

Martin

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[Chris_Robb]

New Boats and deliveries

Following on from YM Lifeboat supplement last month, ALL the accidents involved either a new boat or a boat recently bought. This appears to be little different - accept the sorry outcome.

Why oh why - when told at the refueling jetty of the impending storm - did they choose to set of - knowing that there is 500 miles of lee shore that few boats could beat out of let alone a Jenneau. There are also - as far as I am aware of few places they could have marked off in their manadatory passage plan, where they could have taken shelter in the event of unplanned failure or weather.

Is this a case of loosing face in turning your back on a bad forecast - "Iv'e said i'll go so i'll go" I am desperately sorry about the tragedy - but it was lucky not to be three - and perhaps some of the rescuers.

End result will be more imposistions by officialdom, and probably by the insurers too - for which we will dig further into our pockets for what now appears to have been an irresponsible decision.


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[Mirelle]

Re: Delivery Crews: What Next?

The professional delivery skippers whom I know are obsessed with weather windows, and meticulous about timing their passages to accord with good weather. They will not leave to travel to the boat unless the forecast looks promising. After all, their livelihood depends on not making a mess of someone else's property.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: New Boats and deliveries

Chris, you wouldn't have gone, I wouldn't have gone but we're both older than any two of that crew put together. As we age our perception of danger increases because we know our limitations only too well. The trouble is, when you're 23 or 24 you're so strong and quick it's difficult to imagine circumstances when those will not be enough. Unfortunately, by the time these poor devils did find out it was too late. Of course older people get themselves in trouble too, but it almost always turns on an unpercieved or unappreciated risk. No-one sticks their head in the noose on purpose!
Happy New Year, by the way.
John

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[Rowana]

Disaster

I must have missed this one. Where can I read the story (in english)?

Which delivery company was involved?

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[Gunfleet]

Re: Disaster

Her Majesty's Daily Telegraph yesterday had two pages on it.

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[Rowana]

Re: Disaster

I'm afraid I only get the Aberdeen Press & Journal. Anywhere on line where I can read the story?

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[BrendanS]

Re: Disaster

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://news.google.com/news?q=yacht+death&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&edition=us&scoring=d&start=20&sa=N&filter=0>several versions here</A>

<hr width=100% size=1> I asked an economist for her phone number....and she gave me an estimate

 

[Rowana]

Re: Disaster

Thanks Brendan

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