Knoydart pub (The Old Forge, Inverie) - community share offer

[Sandy]

Looks like they have raised £150,000 in three days. Clearly some people think what they are doing is good.

I visited a few time in my youth and loved the place. The stories I have heard over the last five years tell of a very changed place.

 

[Birdseye]

The magnificent Knoydart pub (The Old Forge, Inverie, Loch Nevis) is launching a buyout funding project which is slightly different from similar buyouts e.g. The Old Ship at Cawsand.

Locals within the Knoydart area can subscribe at £75, but "outcomers" need to put together a minimum of£10000.

Having been in contact with the people more or less from the start, I am proposing that YBW put together a group application, and I will start the funding with £750.


The website with all the details is here

www.theoldforgecbs.org/invest

Link to pics

Old Forge inverie - Bing images


If there is a lawyer / finance expert with experience in this sort of group application, I would be very grateful for a bit of a hand.

Many thanks

Would never consider investing in anything where the shareholders werent equal. But leaving that aside , what is the business proposition and where is the financial return on investment coming from. The answer I suspect is that there isnt going to be a return. The assumptions in the prospectus are heroic even with much of the finance coming as a gift aka grant.

Doesnt sound to me as if it was a roaring business proposition under previous ownership both the surrent guy and the ones before. I am not saying that it cannot be made to work if you had serious backing, but as a shoestring co-operative - no way will it survive long term.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Would never consider investing in anything where the shareholders werent equal. But leaving that aside , what is the business proposition and where is the financial return on investment coming from. The answer I suspect is that there isnt going to be a return. The assumptions in the prospectus are heroic even with much of the finance coming as a gift aka grant.

Doesnt sound to me as if it was a roaring business proposition under previous ownership both the surrent guy and the ones before. I am not saying that it cannot be made to work if you had serious backing, but as a shoestring co-operative - no way will it survive long term.

I wonder if you miss the point. Its a community buy out to preserve a most useful asset. It is definitely not in order to make money. If that was your plan you can put your wallet away.

However the bench mark for locals and outsiders seems all wrong, and failure would hurt outsiders more, so I am not impressed by that.

Sarabande proposes a consortium of Forumites to get round the inequality but I think the inequality is such that it amounts to embedded xenophobia.

If they dont want this poor Wessex fellow to visit while walking or sailing, then they can sink on their own. The land is nice, but the folk seem to have gone awry

 

[Quandary]

Until the Belgian took over the welcome at the Old Forge was outstanding regardless of where you were from, even Wessex and parts east, has a highland lassie been nasty to you?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I remember the welcome at The Old Forge with affection. No lassie has been nasty to me and I have never met anything but courtesy on Britains NW coast, but the apparent attitude of the Buyout folk is dubious to say the least.

Locals can risk small money and contribute as best they can to the venture, which as noted could fail, particularly in view of the local discord, but also the small margin in such a remote spot. Non-locals must cough up very large sums, certainly beyond my means, but could lose the lot if the venture fails.

As a non-rich stranger I feel repulsed on what I might otherwise consider a worthy cause.

 

[seivadnehpets]

a place like that requires a bunk house, for low cost accommodation that attracts the young and adventurous who like to drink. Where are the ideas for the community events to attract visitors? It does have some stunning accommodation to ren

Inverie does have a really nice hostel, but it is a little remote from the pub, and not busy enough off season to really feel welcoming to odds and sods like myself, (money in honesty box sort of thing). I think some sort of tie up between the pub and hostel could help enormously.
I have been through several times but never stayed the night, and consequently only visited the pub once, and on that occasion I set out on the path towards Glenndessary at about 8.30pm. Not a good idea, don't ask!

 

[Sandy]

Almost up to £200,000! That will unlock all sorts of funding.

 

[dgadee]

As a non-rich stranger I feel repulsed on what I might otherwise consider a worthy cause.

I read it as an attempt to keep the 'absentee landlord' type out of the system. Is it something else? The absentees, making decisions from afar, have been the bane of Scotland for generations - the RSPB included.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I read it as an attempt to keep the 'absentee landlord' type out of the system. Is it something else? The absentees, making decisions from afar, have been the bane of Scotland for generations - the RSPB included.

A system that repels friends as well as enemies, has failed

 

[dgadee]

A system that repels friends as well as enemies, has failed

But they have raised £200k already, Sandy says. That will enable access to more monies. How can that have failed?

 

[Sandy]

A system that repels friends as well as enemies, has failed

It might be worth researching 'absentee landlords' in Scottish history and understanding the deep rooted dislike of them in the community. But I stray into boggy ground in the forum.

As a shareholder in a community pub I think it is a brilliant effort from the group at Inverie. I took the decision to 'invest' in my local as it was about to be closed by the brewery which would have left the village without a 'local'. The nearest pub is a two mile walk or five mile drive.

Once we had raised a substantial amount of money this opened up all sorts of funding from various organisations. While this was true of Englandshire I hope the same is available in Scotlandshire.

I look forward to picking up a mooring ball or anchoring and going ashore for a pint and a dram or two.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Do you think absentee landlords is a only scottish problem? It bedevils the english housing market and also business. I think a change of voting rights for locals and outsiders might have been a better solution than a 10k bar

 

[Sandy]

Do you think absentee landlords is a only scottish problem?

No, but the historical context needs to be understood.

 

[dgadee]

Do you think absentee landlords is a only scottish problem? It bedevils the english housing market and also business. I think a change of voting rights for locals and outsiders might have been a better solution than a 10k bar

It's perhaps a question of size of the problem. I remember the 7:84 theatre company which highlighted the ownership problem back when I last lived in Scotland. 7% owned 84% of the UK. In Scotland there would have been a smaller % owning a larger %.

Edit: mind you, it isn't just ownership. When I kept the boat at Lochinver the locals told me that there had been considerable opposition from English visitors to the improvements to the road from Ullapool. They wanted the area kept, 'wild'. The locals didn't.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The other side of this is that a local community are trying to improve their lot primarily for themselves but also for tourists. I think that what they are doing is admirable, taking ownership of the issue and trying to address it: a community space that allows the community to gather informally, and a space that can be used by visitors to the area for refreshment and food.

Asking for crowd funding or a combination of crowdfunding a share ownership, is nothing knew and as a model to help achieve an ambition has its merits. The key point is that everyone who contributes does so freely and has the available information to them to make a decision.

Absentee landlords is not the issue here, nor is it relevant to the proposal as the Knoydart Foundation dealt with that issue well over a decade ago. The pub buyout project is part of the ongoing development of the area by the community.

 

[claymore]

Seems to me to have "10 ft Barge Pole" stamped all over it.
As my old Dad said when I was doing a spot of crowdfunding in the late 60's to buy a car - "buying a car is not that difficult - its running it where you find the snags"
Same applies to very remote, very short seasoned pubs with a comparatively tiny regular customer base.

 

[dgadee]

Seems to me to have "10 ft Barge Pole" stamped all over it.
As my old Dad said when I was doing a spot of crowdfunding in the late 60's to buy a car - "buying a car is not that difficult - its running it where you find the snags"
Same applies to very remote, very short seasoned pubs with a comparatively tiny regular customer base.

Ochone! Ochone! It wull nuver work!

On a more positive note, the model does seem to have a measure of success in some attempts: What works: Successful community pubs - Power to Change

 

[claymore]

I think the word that seems to make all the difference is 'Community'
I would respectfully suggest that the half dozen or so that regularly frequent the old Forge do not constitute a viable customer base and as I mentioned earlier - its a very short season for tourists and other punters.
Shame because I've had some cracking nights there but when pubs all over far more accessible parts of mainland Britain are closing at an alarming rate - the Old Forge just doesn't seem to have a hope

 

[penfold]

On the contrary; not being tied to a brewery means careful management could break even, as opposed to being run ragged making Diageo rich then going broke anyway.

 

[claymore]

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. 35 years in and around the Hospitality sector helps me to recognise a pig in a poke. Being tied or otherwise to a Brewery is not the vital consideration.
Profit means survival - break even means bugger all