nigelmercier
RIP
- Joined
- 20 Jun 2007
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- 16,234
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- Live in Kent, boat in Canary Islands
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Knot instead of chain hook
- Thread starter TiggerToo
- Start date
estarzinger
Well-Known Member
^^
Just so we are on the same page on the breaking strengths - those I listed above are for a "stronger" soft shackle, which is two loops of the dyneema. A single piece of dyneema will not be that strong - it will be 2.5x less strong in fact. You would need to go up in size for a rode - but you would certaintly find a size that would be stronger while way way less weight than chain. . . . Might be interesting to a racer or keen lightweight multihuller, but probably too expensive and with some practical handling challenges to work out for most cruising mono-hullers.
The soft shackle to snubber connection is an eye (with thimble) spliced in the end of the snubber. . . . Pretty much the same as most people do for a hook. This and the soft shackle thru a chain link avoid any issue with the dyneema slipperiness.
There is a write up on my web page showing the latest version of my latest "super snubber" which has covered dyneema from the deck cleat to just over the bow roller (this minimizes chafe potential) then spliced (two eye splices) to a section of nylon brait (most energery absorption) which is then eye spliced to the soft shackle connected to the chain. This "system" has been proven as by far the most reliable mooring pennant system thru actual use thru several hurricanes which have hit the NE US mooring fields (it was the only system where none broke at all in Sandy). It manages to combine both the elasticity of nylon with the chafe resustance of dyneema in just the right places.
Just so we are on the same page on the breaking strengths - those I listed above are for a "stronger" soft shackle, which is two loops of the dyneema. A single piece of dyneema will not be that strong - it will be 2.5x less strong in fact. You would need to go up in size for a rode - but you would certaintly find a size that would be stronger while way way less weight than chain. . . . Might be interesting to a racer or keen lightweight multihuller, but probably too expensive and with some practical handling challenges to work out for most cruising mono-hullers.
The soft shackle to snubber connection is an eye (with thimble) spliced in the end of the snubber. . . . Pretty much the same as most people do for a hook. This and the soft shackle thru a chain link avoid any issue with the dyneema slipperiness.
There is a write up on my web page showing the latest version of my latest "super snubber" which has covered dyneema from the deck cleat to just over the bow roller (this minimizes chafe potential) then spliced (two eye splices) to a section of nylon brait (most energery absorption) which is then eye spliced to the soft shackle connected to the chain. This "system" has been proven as by far the most reliable mooring pennant system thru actual use thru several hurricanes which have hit the NE US mooring fields (it was the only system where none broke at all in Sandy). It manages to combine both the elasticity of nylon with the chafe resustance of dyneema in just the right places.
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Dockhead
Well-Known Member
Like many others in this thread, I regard chain hooks for snubbers as solutions to a problem which doesn't exist.
The rolling hitch has worked perfectly for my snubbers for decades -- never had one come loose, never had one jam. Simple, quick, and free of cost.
I don't know why people insist on looking for more and different ways to attach their snubbers. Has anyone really had a problem with this? That being said, a friend of mine recently made me a couple of lovely soft shackles out of Dyneema for attaching the snubber. So I will be trying these out, probably tonight. If there is any actual advantage compared to the tried and true rolling hitch, I'll report on here. One thing for sure good about these is that they can't fall off like a chain hook can.
I'd like to take the chance to mention one pet peeve of mine -- people using snubbers as the sole means of belaying their chains. Snubbers by their very nature are very unlikely to be as strong as the chain, and are subject to chafe and stress as they stretch. And then on top of that you might attach it with a chain hook which could fall off?! You really should belay the chain with a strop or a chain stopper which is as strong as the chain, in order to avoid creating a weak link in your ground tackle. Snubbers have a different purpose -- introducing elasticity into your ground tackle in order to prevent snatch loading. That's a different purpose from securely belaying the chain so that the entire strength of the chain is available to hold your boat in case of need.
The rolling hitch has worked perfectly for my snubbers for decades -- never had one come loose, never had one jam. Simple, quick, and free of cost.
I don't know why people insist on looking for more and different ways to attach their snubbers. Has anyone really had a problem with this? That being said, a friend of mine recently made me a couple of lovely soft shackles out of Dyneema for attaching the snubber. So I will be trying these out, probably tonight. If there is any actual advantage compared to the tried and true rolling hitch, I'll report on here. One thing for sure good about these is that they can't fall off like a chain hook can.
I'd like to take the chance to mention one pet peeve of mine -- people using snubbers as the sole means of belaying their chains. Snubbers by their very nature are very unlikely to be as strong as the chain, and are subject to chafe and stress as they stretch. And then on top of that you might attach it with a chain hook which could fall off?! You really should belay the chain with a strop or a chain stopper which is as strong as the chain, in order to avoid creating a weak link in your ground tackle. Snubbers have a different purpose -- introducing elasticity into your ground tackle in order to prevent snatch loading. That's a different purpose from securely belaying the chain so that the entire strength of the chain is available to hold your boat in case of need.
estarzinger
Well-Known Member
Different people have different priorities here:
My wife liked the chain hook because it could be flipped off so easily, if we needed to let out more chain or move quickly.
I like the soft shackle because it can be attached on deck and will not fall off accidentally.
The rolling hitch and soft shackle have somewhat similar characteristics - I prefer the soft because there is no risk at 2 am of tying it wrong and it does not get tighter/harder to untie when wet and loaded and because it makes the "wear part" of the snubber replaceable (although in practice it seems to be essentially wear resistant).
They all work. The pros and cons between them are marginal. It's just a matter of slightly different priorities/preferences. Surely not worth a religious war
My wife liked the chain hook because it could be flipped off so easily, if we needed to let out more chain or move quickly.
I like the soft shackle because it can be attached on deck and will not fall off accidentally.
The rolling hitch and soft shackle have somewhat similar characteristics - I prefer the soft because there is no risk at 2 am of tying it wrong and it does not get tighter/harder to untie when wet and loaded and because it makes the "wear part" of the snubber replaceable (although in practice it seems to be essentially wear resistant).
They all work. The pros and cons between them are marginal. It's just a matter of slightly different priorities/preferences. Surely not worth a religious war
Dockhead,
But I think it difficult to attach (and detach) a rolling hitch one handed - which is a restriction for many. I've just checked Evans website and think a soft shackle might be installed one handed (comment Evans? - on a dark night, in the rain?). But I can attach, and detach, a chain hook one handed. We have never had a chain hook fall off when the rode is under load - ours only fell off when the bridle commencing at the bow, was too long and was on the seabed in light winds.
Final para: +1, We use an 8mm G70 claw, secured with 10mm Dyneema, which we also use to secure the chain/anchor when we are sea (but double this up with a stainless steel pin through one of the links (claws can jump off in big seas)). Bridles have the advantage that you would be most unlucky if both sides failed simultaneously - and you know when they fail (it sounds like gunshot). On a single snubber you would need a very strong 'strong point' and possibly a bit of elasticity for your chain stopper.
Jonathan
Evans - our answers crossed - But I would agree its all about what works for the particular set up on the yacht (none of which are ever designed to take a snubber in the first place - unless its a custom built)
But I think it difficult to attach (and detach) a rolling hitch one handed - which is a restriction for many. I've just checked Evans website and think a soft shackle might be installed one handed (comment Evans? - on a dark night, in the rain?). But I can attach, and detach, a chain hook one handed. We have never had a chain hook fall off when the rode is under load - ours only fell off when the bridle commencing at the bow, was too long and was on the seabed in light winds.
Final para: +1, We use an 8mm G70 claw, secured with 10mm Dyneema, which we also use to secure the chain/anchor when we are sea (but double this up with a stainless steel pin through one of the links (claws can jump off in big seas)). Bridles have the advantage that you would be most unlucky if both sides failed simultaneously - and you know when they fail (it sounds like gunshot). On a single snubber you would need a very strong 'strong point' and possibly a bit of elasticity for your chain stopper.
Jonathan
Evans - our answers crossed - But I would agree its all about what works for the particular set up on the yacht (none of which are ever designed to take a snubber in the first place - unless its a custom built)
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estarzinger
Well-Known Member
^^ a normal soft shackle is usually a two handed operation. One hand to hold open the eye and the other to stick the stopper thru. I have never thought about it, but I suspect you could easily modify/optimize the soft shackle design so that it was one handed. In fact, thinking about it just now, I have a prototype made by brion toss which is - it has a reinforcing piece in the eye which will hold the eye open. That might be a worthwhile feature in the design to develop further, as it would be useful for halyards also.
noelex
Well-Known Member
Another vote for the soft shackle.
I have had the rolling hitch slip on occasion and of course this always happens at the worse moment with the maximum pressure. They can also jam.
It could be my lousy knot tying, I have tried all the options, dressing the knot carefully, but I am not convinced a rolling hitch is 100% reliable or jam proof.
A Klemheist knot using a Prusik loop has been 100% reliable (although it has also jammed at least to the point where it has been very slow to remove). I tied this for the last couple of years. Evan's great idea of a soft shackle is quicker, easier and less bulky. I have used this for the last 4 months and it has been the best system so far.
I hate to disagree with the inventor of this system, but I can attach and remove it one handed (I just tried) without any great problems. There has also been some suggestion, on other forums, that the soft shackle will be very durable. While Dyneema is very chafe resistant, these soft shackles are going to need periodic replacement. Not a big deal given the low cost, but something you should be aware of.
This is the middle of mine , where all the wear occurs, after 4 months continuous use. My guess is that is will have about a 9-12 month life.
I have had the rolling hitch slip on occasion and of course this always happens at the worse moment with the maximum pressure. They can also jam.
It could be my lousy knot tying, I have tried all the options, dressing the knot carefully, but I am not convinced a rolling hitch is 100% reliable or jam proof.
A Klemheist knot using a Prusik loop has been 100% reliable (although it has also jammed at least to the point where it has been very slow to remove). I tied this for the last couple of years. Evan's great idea of a soft shackle is quicker, easier and less bulky. I have used this for the last 4 months and it has been the best system so far.
I hate to disagree with the inventor of this system, but I can attach and remove it one handed (I just tried) without any great problems. There has also been some suggestion, on other forums, that the soft shackle will be very durable. While Dyneema is very chafe resistant, these soft shackles are going to need periodic replacement. Not a big deal given the low cost, but something you should be aware of.
This is the middle of mine , where all the wear occurs, after 4 months continuous use. My guess is that is will have about a 9-12 month life.
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estarzinger
Well-Known Member
Interesting . Do you know what model dyneema that is - I know some use thinner base fibers than others. And has your chain been re galvanized - I wonder if it has any sharp ridges?
I posted a photo a while ago of a soft shackle I have been using for two years, which is dirty, but shows essentially zero wear. It would be useful to understand the difference between your application and mine?
noelex
Well-Known Member
Yes I did read your comments about the durability, which surprised me.
Not that I am complaining about durability, my wife makes these up so the cost is not high. A system that is reliable and quick to release is worth a lot. The shackle pictured has been used for almost 120 nights including 48 hours at 40 knots plus.
I don't see the projected life as a big problem.
The chain has not been re galvanised, but it is poked through a different joint every time we anchor so there is the possibility of a sharp edge.
We bought quite a few different lengths and diameters of Dyneema/Amsteel to experiment with when back home after our last haulout, so the providence is lost. This was blue coloured (some of it is grey).
Here is a photo of the most pristine part of the rope from partially under the sheath. This might give some idea of the construction. The calliper jaws are set for 5mm as a reference.
Thanks for your work in this area.
estarzinger
Well-Known Member
^^
interesting . . . i will have to look into this a bit.
I do now remember that I once bought some (blue - sold as winch cable I think) dyneema in NZ (quite a while ago), used in my mainsail reef clew, and it did pretty quickly develop some fuzz like that, which was very different to other dyneema line I have used in the same application (no fuzz after years of use). So there must be some constructional difference's out there than I am not knowledgeable about.
interesting . . . i will have to look into this a bit.
I do now remember that I once bought some (blue - sold as winch cable I think) dyneema in NZ (quite a while ago), used in my mainsail reef clew, and it did pretty quickly develop some fuzz like that, which was very different to other dyneema line I have used in the same application (no fuzz after years of use). So there must be some constructional difference's out there than I am not knowledgeable about.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
Different people have different priorities here:
My wife liked the chain hook because it could be flipped off so easily, if we needed to let out more chain or move quickly.
I like the soft shackle because it can be attached on deck and will not fall off accidentally.
The rolling hitch and soft shackle have somewhat similar characteristics - I prefer the soft because there is no risk at 2 am of tying it wrong and it does not get tighter/harder to untie when wet and loaded and because it makes the "wear part" of the snubber replaceable (although in practice it seems to be essentially wear resistant).
They all work. The pros and cons between them are marginal. It's just a matter of slightly different priorities/preferences. Surely not worth a religious war
Agreed!
I'm open minded.
Another thought about why the rolling hitch works better for some people and less for others -- I bet that different types and sizes of rope behave differently. I'm using 12mm chain and 16mm octoplait nylon for a snubber, and it might very well be the case that different chain/rope combinations work less well.
I can and do untie my snubber with one hand, and the ability to do this is (I agree with another poster above) very important, as I generally do it while holding on with the other hand to my pulpit.
I cannot tie it with one hand, and if the soft shackle works one-handed, then this is a very significant advantage.
A significant disadvantage is that you need to splice a loop in your snubber. For one thing, I don't know how to splice octo :banghead:. For another, it's just extra work which you don't have with a regular snubber, which can be a simple length of rope. Since they don't usually last for more than a season or two, this work adds up.
But like I said, I'm open-minded, and am going to try the soft shackle system.
noelex
Well-Known Member
If you PM me a postal address I will sent you the soft shackle.
I am not likely to hit a post office for a couple of months, but It might help to evaluate this example.
I would be interested in a load test result if you can do this.
John, Evans, Dockhead - you are all quoting from your experience of using soft shackles in relatively large yachts, which are possible larger than average for this forum. Someone will now tell me the average yacht of forum owners is 45'? Large yachts commonly have lots of space up forward, or more space than say a 35' AWB where the windlass will be well forward and the chain locker lid right under the furler - making access, except beyond the pulpit very difficult. Moreover there is commonly only room for one hand, through any of the gaps between locker lid, windlass, furler etc. The only way of attaching is then beyond the roller itself needing one hand to hold on, as you will be hanging 'upside down', and one to attach the snubber - hooks are much, much easier. Hooks are used as if applied correctly they work, they are dead easy to get off, they can be attached one handed, good ones do not fail, you can get them off the shelf from any chandler and they last for ever. Maybe morph your experiences to smaller yachts and with 8mm chain.
I will try a soft shackle - but it needs to work 'one handed'.
Jonathan
I will try a soft shackle - but it needs to work 'one handed'.
Jonathan
Melleman
Well-Known Member
in post 36 it is a one handed soft shackle but i have now learn that there is a stronger version
estarzinger
Well-Known Member
I have not previous focused on one handed operation . . . I have always previously used two hands . . . . . But several of you say you do it one handed . . . . the versions (which include the "stronger" designs) where you can slide the eye open and it will stay open would seem to be "one handed possible" - slide the eye open, stick it thru the chain, push the stopper knot thru the eye, close the eye. Is that how you do it? (We need a short video )
)estarzinger
Well-Known Member
Just for comparison . . . . here is the wear area on my snubber shackle - used 2 years - about 12 months of summer anchoring (including Greenland, Labrador, Newfoundland and nova Scotia) and 12 months of winter marina's:
View attachment 45154
If you click on it you can see there is in fact a little fuzz/chafe, but only a very little.
I don't know what explains the difference in people's 'wear rate' on these - must be some combination of the dyneema used, the smoothness of the chain, and the anchoring movement and loads (vs dyneema size/strength).
This one is nothing special dyneema wise - just bog common amsteel. My chain is newish and has 'factory' smooth galvanizing on it.
View attachment 45154
If you click on it you can see there is in fact a little fuzz/chafe, but only a very little.
I don't know what explains the difference in people's 'wear rate' on these - must be some combination of the dyneema used, the smoothness of the chain, and the anchoring movement and loads (vs dyneema size/strength).
This one is nothing special dyneema wise - just bog common amsteel. My chain is newish and has 'factory' smooth galvanizing on it.
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