Knot instead of chain hook

[CaptainBob]

To those of us who do not have twin bow rollers on the stemhead and use a hook (or rolling hitch for that matter) do you just cleat the hook line and run through a fairlead (assuming you don't use a bridle)?

As the chain is slack we've always run the line on the same roller the chain uses. Still on the same line after circa 300 nights now with no noticeable chafe. But our line isn't stretchy, and we have three inline rubber snubbers on it after it leaves the roller.

 

[alan_d]

As the chain is slack we've always run the line on the same roller the chain uses.

+1

 

[Sybarite]

As the chain is slack we've always run the line on the same roller the chain uses. Still on the same line after circa 300 nights now with no noticeable chafe. But our line isn't stretchy, and we have three inline rubber snubbers on it after it leaves the roller.

I use a line with a single inline rubber snubber, the line being attached by a shackle to the chain. Works for me.

 

[nigelmercier]

... I would suggest a dyneema soft shackle is better than either a hook or a rolling hitch...

I really like this idea, for my genoa sheets as well. Is it worth making them?

 

[estarzinger]

I really like this idea, for my genoa sheets as well. Is it worth making them?

They are real easy to make, and yes work well for the genoa sheet attachments. I personally use a dyneema lashing there rather than a soft shackle because I just leave the sheets attached, don't need at quick undo, and the lashing us marginally more streamlined than the soft shackle (no stopper knot).

As an aside, you can also make soft shackles out of Dacron hollow braid - it's obviously not as strong as dyneema but is usually strong enough for many applications.

 

[J Neeves]

Oh, ok . . . I have been up in Greenland and not reading magazines. Just got back - difficult ice year up there.

Did you use a "classic" design (with a diamond knot) or one of the he "stronger" designs? My sense is for snubber applications the "stronger" designs are desirable - because the dyneema diameter is limited by chain link size, you want the dyneema small enough to thread thru easily. I have also found that tighter weave dyneema is a bit easier to use.

There has been zero noticeable wear or chafe on mine.

Imperial link chain nominally equivalent in size to metric chain has a larger link (than metric chain). So the 'hole' in imperial chain (between the links) is larger than metric. Consequently threading any cordage, or a bent wire hook or a shackle pin, of the correct size/strength through metric chain is more difficult than imperial (and must be even more of a nightmare if you have down sized to G7). A simple solution for imperial chain might be less convenient for metric.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Imperial link chain nominally equivalent in size to metric chain has a larger link (than metric chain). So the 'hole' in imperial chain (between the links) is larger than metric. Consequently threading any cordage, or a bent wire hook or a shackle pin, of the correct size/strength through metric chain is more difficult than imperial (and must be even more of a nightmare if you have down sized to G7). A simple solution for imperial chain might be less convenient for metric.

Jonathan

It can be done though. My YM article mentioned above included soft shackle attachment to metric chain. Although I wrote the article, Chris Beeson did all the illustrative part so I don't know if he had problems getting the shackle through the chain.

I have to say that the forged hook seems ideal to me. I am on it now, during a strong meltemi with big gusts, no problems whatsoever. As for the argument that hooks are simply unnecessary as it is cheaper to tie the snubber on, does the same apply to shackles for halyards? Or spinnaker sheets?

 

[charles_reed]

Over the last 3 weeks of anchoring regularly, I used a snubbing arrangement made of a stretchy mooring warp tied onto the anchor chain with a rolling hitch. This seems to have worked very well: it was really easy to set up and really easy to undo when weighing anchor.

Having seen the article of YM about chain hooks, set me wondering: is there really any advantage of using a hook over a simple "free" knot?

Vyv C - what is your view on this - as the author of that neat article?

My opinion a chain-hook shows definite benefit over a rolling hitch after being anchored in 30 knot winds. You can always cut away the rolling hitch, though even that takes longer than detaching my Wichard chain hook.

 

[J Neeves]

It can be done though. My YM article mentioned above included soft shackle attachment to metric chain. Although I wrote the article, Chris Beeson did all the illustrative part so I don't know if he had problems getting the shackle through the chain.

I have to say that the forged hook seems ideal to me. I am on it now, during a strong meltemi with big gusts, no problems whatsoever. As for the argument that hooks are simply unnecessary as it is cheaper to tie the snubber on, does the same apply to shackles for halyards? Or spinnaker sheets?

Sorry Vyv but YM takes rather a long time to get here, so I've not been able to read the article!

But I had fondly thought 5/16th" Imperial chain was 'similar' in size to 8mm metric - I've recently tested them and they are very dissimilar (in that 5/16th" is closer to 9mm than 8mm and the link sizes are very different). It is easy to thread a 10mm Dyneema into a 5/16th" link, you would really struggle with an 8mm link - and struggle more in the rain and at 2am. I am sure someone will say that 10mm is overkill - I'm just illustrating size difference. And with no disrespect to either you or Chris - its how easy it is at 2am in the rain that is the test (unless Chris ran the test overnight?).

Just be cautious - many Americans have, rightly, adopted soft shackles for attaching snubbers - just remember their chain links are bigger. Smaller Dyneema will obviously fit - but it will wear more quickly.

We use 2 x 12m snubbers (its a cat), taken from the aft cleats. We use a forged chain hook, which does not fall off as the snubbers always have the weight of the slack loop of chain 'holding it on'. But we have had chain hooks fall off when they trail on the seabed (when we had a different snubber arrangement). We have also used the Witchard chain hook, with the pin. We did not bend the pin but it needed 2 hands to release (and attach), so a decent forged hook appears better as it can be attached and detached, one handed.

But I do not think there is a one size fits all solution - what is more important is the message 'use a minimum 7m snubber!'.

Jonathan

PS, I'll read the article in 2 months time when the ship arrives!

 

[charles_reed]

To those of us who do not have twin bow rollers on the stemhead and use a hook (or rolling hitch for that matter) do you just cleat the hook line and run through a fairlead (assuming you don't use a bridle)?

Yes. I usually use 1/2 depth of water of 14mm octoplait and leave a bight of chain hanging, between hook and anchor-roller.
It's transformed my boat's behaviour at anchor. She used to sheer around like a nervous horse an in moderate winds (12-20 knots) sail up to the anchor and give it a good shake before falling back and shaking the chain out of the water. Now the chain/hook stay below the surface up to 30 knots and there is none of the shock loading one gets with all-chain rode.
See Alain Fraysse for a fuller explanation of the advantages of mixed chain/rode combinations.

 

[J Neeves]

Yes. I usually use 1/2 depth of water of 14mm octoplait and leave a bight of chain hanging, between hook and anchor-roller.
It's transformed my boat's behaviour at anchor. She used to sheer around like a nervous horse an in moderate winds (12-20 knots) sail up to the anchor and give it a good shake before falling back and shaking the chain out of the water. Now the chain/hook stay below the surface up to 30 knots and there is none of the shock loading one gets with all-chain rode.
See Alain Fraysse for a fuller explanation of the advantages of mixed chain/rode combinations.

If I understand this correctly you use 2m of of 14mm octaplait when anchored in 4m of water!?

Jonathan

 

[kalanka]

I used to use a chain hook but do have a sort of mini bowsprit like an earlier poster and found fitting it to the chain was a little awkward. I now much prefer a direct rope link but do not find that rolling hitches come instinctively to me. Instead I deployed a Penberthy Knot, learnt from a previous life as a mountaineer, and found it entirely successful on chain. Take some nylon line of your preferred size and take three or four turns around the chain. Tie the end back into the standing part of the rope as though completing a bowline. Secure the other end to the cleat or samson post. Job done.

Slight upward pull on the rope allows it to pass easily over the bow roller when veering or retrieving chain. Never jams, never slips.

 

[estarzinger]

Just FYI . . . if using a heat set dyneema (like NER STS, used for the example below) you get the following breaking strengths for a soft shackle of the 'stronger' design series:

3mm dyneema = 5,900kgs BS, which is stronger than 16mm 3 strand nylon (at 5,300kgs) and even degraded by 50% is stronger than 11mm nylon
5mm dyneema = 10,700kgs BS, which is stronger than 22mm 3 strand nylon (at 10,100kgs) and even degraded by 50% is stronger than 14mm nylon

My experience is you can very easily thread 5mm cord 'stronger design' soft shackles thru 10mm chain, and 6mm will fit but a little more tightly (stiffer dyneema braid is useful here to make this easier).

So I would suggest there is more than enough strength in the 'stronger' soft shackles for the application. Your snubber line is most likely to break/chafe before the soft shackle. But I do think the 'stronger' designs should be used. The 'conventional' designs will be strong enough for 99.9% of the time, but it will be a potential weak point in the system.

Edit: by the way . . . the "stronger' designs slip in easier/better than the "classic" design or L-36's "improved" design because less of the shackle body has a bury in it. The easiest is to make a 'long' shackle of the 'stronger' design and then none of the part that goes thru the chain will have a bury, so it will only be as thick as the dyneema cord - in which case you can in fact quite easily use 8mm cord in 10mm chain if you want (although it would be vast overkill).

 

[nigelmercier]

... The easiest is to make a 'long' shackle of the 'stronger' design and then none of the part that goes thru the chain will have a bury, so it will only be as thick as the dyneema cord - in which case you can in fact quite easily use 8mm cord in 10mm chain if you want (although it would be vast overkill).

There was a tread about these some time ago, but of course I can't find it. I seem to remember giving up as I couldn't find a source of the required Dyneema.

 

[J Neeves]

Evans,

If you have not already done so I am sure it would be advantageous if you summarised your knowledge for PS. As Nigel comments there have been threads on the topic but the data can be spread over many posts (and a few forum) making finding the detail of interest less than easy. You appear to have pioneered, or done much work, on the application and have used it where most of us fear to go (but then Greenland is a long way from Australia and the UK) - and I for one would welcome the opportunity to learn.

However I must say for many it would take an act of faith to fix a bridle, or snubber, to a 3mm, or even 5mm, piece of cordage!

Jonathan

 

[estarzinger]

I seem to remember giving up as I couldn't find a source of the required Dyneema.

If you can't find it elsewhere. . . Amazon UK certaintly has it:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dyneema-Rop...8&qid=1409439562&sr=8-7&keywords=dyneema+rope

 

[estarzinger]

However I must say for many it would take an act of faith to fix a bridle, or snubber, to a 3mm, or even 5mm, piece of cordage!

Jonathan

I am probably more comfortable with it than most for two reasons. First I have used bare dyneema for decades as may mainsail reef lines, check stays, and removable innerstay, and so have direct experience with its chafe resistance. And second, I spent much of last winter breaking it with hydraulics and load cell and the many very big "bangs" gave me very direct experience with its strength and what it took to break it. And I now have two years of snubber experience with it (and it has zero noticeable wear).

For others, like you, I would simply suggest it is very easy and inexpensive to make a soft shackle, and put it into use and gain experience. You can back it up with steel until you gain trust.

 

[J Neeves]

I am probably more comfortable with it than most for two reasons. First I have used bare dyneema for decades as may mainsail reef lines, check stays, and removable innerstay, and so have direct experience with its chafe resistance. And second, I spent much of last winter breaking it with hydraulics and load cell and the many very big "bangs" gave me very direct experience with its strength and what it took to break it. And I now have two years of snubber experience with it (and it has zero noticeable wear).

For others, like you, I would simply suggest it is very easy and inexpensive to make a soft shackle, and put it into use and gain experience. You can back it up with steel until you gain trust.

So an idea I floated 12 months ago, go beyond downsizing to G70 and use Dyneema as (part of?) an anchor rode? (backed up with nylon snubbers).

Jonathan

 

[estarzinger]

^^some race boats do that today . . . . But it's just to meet the rule in the lightest possible way and they don't actually anchor on it.

For actual use . . . . Dyneema is pretty slippery, which causes three concerns. #1 it is hard to pull with a windless and #2 it would be tricky to attach a snubber to a loaded bare dyneema line. It is possible - my testing suggest the icicle hitch might work. And #3 it it even a bit difficult to cleat off a loaded bare dyneema line (it will tend to slip round a cleat). Dyneema double braid (with Dacron cover) would solve these issues but add weight and be less chafe resistant.

But . . . . Is the weight saving vs using the conventional nylon really worthwhile. The elasticity of nylon is a real benefit.

 

[J Neeves]

I was floating the idea of replacing the chain, not the nylon. Your 3mm Dyneema has a BS greater than 5/16th" or 8mm G3 and G43. It could be lifted using a drum winch. You would need a snubber (and I had considered it might not be easy to attach - but had not thought further and had assumed it would not be insurmountable). If it was Dacron covered you would see when wear had developed. Would it actually wear any more quickly than gal off a chain? I've seen larger vessels, one in particular was a government fisheries protection vessel in the Med, using steel cable (it might have been gal or stainless - it was difficult to tell - and both have issues), no chain at all. Lots of people use nylon (and chain) and the nylon must drag over the seabed causing abrasion - no-one mentions abrasion as a big issue with mixed rodes (except for coral anchorages). It was just an idea - sorry for the thread drift.

Again it would take some courage to change from 8mm chain to 3mm Dyneema (even if the Dyneema is (much) stronger.

But returning to the thread and soft shackles, I understand how you attach to the chain - how are you attaching the soft shackle to the snubber or bridle?

Jonathan