Killing dolphins

[Woodlouse]

I'm reading rather an interesting book on whaling from the 50's at the moment. And in the very first chapter it mentions that humans have rather an innocent view about large sea mammals, that they are graceful, gentle and intelligent.

It then offers the likely opinion of whales and dolphins held by krill and lesser fish and describes them as 'frightful ravagers and ruthless destroyers.' And so the true nature of these creatures is laid bare.

 

[BobPrell]

Yeah? well I went out for dinner with my wife on Saturday. Now I could have killed a cat and eaten that if i wanted to hone my survival skills, but I suggest we did it just for fun. (Dinner, not cat killing)

I certainly do not deny the existence of "fun". I look for it as much as I can. The feeling of enjoyment and well-being is a natural reward system, for a biological job well-done.

It would be close to a certainty that the animals that toy with their prey, are enjoying the activity. If we measured their brain activity or the state of their neuro-transmitters, the enjoyment could be quantified. This is hard to do with orcas, easier with cats and rats.

Building and maintaining a relationship with your life partner is an essential survival skill, and going out for dinner is one very effective way to do it. For the participant, examining the process coldly and clinically is counter-productve. It quite literally "takes the fun out of it".

So by all means, carry on enjoying.

 

[BobPrell]

I mentioned a long untidy link.

My brain ground slowly until I made the link . . . . . hahahahaha

and I thought "that must be what http://tinyurl.com is for.

This http://tinyurl.com/4lsexuf is the one about cats delaying the kill.

Hope youse read it tomorra.

 

[mikemonty]

Que?

I have re-read this thread several times and can find nowhere that I have mentioned "humans" never mind suggesting that only they have the ability to be cruel or that I think or hope that this is the case.

What I thought I said is that it is utter nonsense to suggest that what we refer to as "toying" with their prey demonstrates that dolphins derive some kind of sadistic pleasure from this behaviour.

You invoked anthropomorphism - as far as I understand it that means attributing human characteristics to other things.
As far as sadism is concerned that IS anthropomorphism - even if an animal derives pleasure from prolonging the killing of another it does does not follow that the motives of the animal are sadistic. You have ascribed human VALUES to an animals activity, not just ACTIONS.
('Scuse the capitals just can't be bovvered doing the whole HTML thing)

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Perhaps we should remember in discussing dolphins (and other cetaceans) that they have a very high brain capacity relative to body mass and have been show to have the capacity to communicate complex concepts, pass on learned skills, can develop and communicate tool using strategies and form strong social interactions? All the above are well demonstrated by mainstream scientists, not "Age of Aquarius" types. I am not saying they have intelligence like ours, but they certainly exhibit a level of intelligence on a par with that of higher primates.

Perhaps the best evidence of intelligence is that no-one has CAUGHT them harming a human

 

[rotrax]

This fish is known as Dorado, dolphin or mahi mahi - it depends on where in the world you are. And it is excellent eating.

This one is named Warren-as in Warren ugly *****ard!

 

[KellysEye]

That's a male, the females are much more attractive, without the big forehead. Also Dorado colouring is more complex and irridescent, much prettier than in the picture.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

It may be true that animals can tell better than us whether we are a threat or not. Possibly some kind of thought transference. I think they know we like them.

I have recently returned from a trip that included going out to sea and being with Pilot Whales and dolphins. It was a magical experience for me and all the family. For me, a good reason for not eating them is there would be one less to see.

I am not a vegetarian but have experimented eating meat and fish without my usual lashings of sauces, coatings, salt etc. It is the blandest taste possible for me when compared to fruit and Veg. I am starting to believe that man only hunted meat and fish for survival. His innards were certainly not designed to break it down without using massive amounts of energy with only a marginal gain. I would expect most fishermen enjoy the thrill of catching them more than anything else.

 

[Coaster]

I am not a vegetarian but have experimented eating meat and fish without my usual lashings of sauces, coatings, salt etc. It is the blandest taste possible for me when compared to fruit and Veg. I am starting to believe that man only hunted meat and fish for survival. His innards were certainly not designed to break it down without using massive amounts of energy with only a marginal gain. I would expect most fishermen enjoy the thrill of catching them more than anything else.

Perhaps you've been eating factory produced meat. For example much of the chicken sold in the UK grows rapidly, in boring conditions, eating boring rations, and is killed at 6 weeks. There is no chance of it being tasty, on its own.

We eat a lot of wood pigeon which I shoot. Simply grilled, with nothing added, I find it extremely appetising. We have reared our own lambs (Jacobs) and killed them at 12 months, much later than commercial flocks. Plain roasted, the meat's delicious.

I understand that cooking meat allowed ancient peoples to easily absorb lots of first class protein. Cooking meat was a very successful evolutionary move.

 

[SAWDOC]

It may be true that animals can tell better than us whether we are a threat or not. Possibly some kind of thought transference. I think they know we like them.

I have recently returned from a trip that included going out to sea and being with Pilot Whales and dolphins. It was a magical experience for me and all the family. For me, a good reason for not eating them is there would be one less to see.

Wise words.

Scientific explanations and magical experiences dont seem to include each other.

 

[Conachair]

Would a canaries dolphin understand an Azores dolphin?

Like most other animals, dolphins do have communication. Their squeals and whistles communicate emotional states and, often, the presence of danger and food in the area. They may also help them coordinate “herding” processes. Dolphin females often act as “midwives” to new mothers, and every dolphin in the pod cares for the others.

But do they communicate linguistically? There’s some evidence for it. Dolphins tend to stay within their own pods, and may have trouble understanding “foreign” dolphins. In studies done on dolphins near Scotland, individuals appear to have names; or at least, other dolphins use specific and unique whistles only in the presence of certain other dolphins, as if calling them by name. Unlike any other animal besides humans, dolphins exhibit a great tendency to take turns when vocalizing – making their communications sound like a conversation.

There have also been very basic linguistic studies of dolphin sound patterns. According to some studies, dolphin sounds follow the same basic patterns of all human-based language, from Morse code to Chinese. Though we cannot understand what they’re saying, it’s not beyond the bounds to state that dolphins may indeed have language, though it’s certainly a language unlike any we know today.

 

[BobPrell]

Perhaps the best evidence of intelligence is that no-one has CAUGHT them harming a human

Well I have been restraining myself from posting on this thread for a while but it sems to be reluctant to die..........

I remember reading in a "reputable" (whatever that means) military journal back in the 70s that the US Navy had trained dolphins to kill enemy divers* and bring their bodies back to prove their effectiveness.

I see now in the relevant wikipedia article, the US Navy has a marine mammal training unit but they deny that they now train, or have ever trained, mammals to use deadly force.

* during the Viet Nam conflict.

 

[SAWDOC]

I remember reading in a "reputable" (whatever that means) military journal back in the 70s that the US Navy had trained dolphins to kill enemy divers* and bring their bodies back to prove their effectiveness.

I see now in the relevant wikipedia article, the US Navy has a marine mammal training unit but they deny that they now train, or have ever trained, mammals to use deadly force.

* during the Viet Nam conflict.

That is interesting.

The wikipedia article contains the following text which seemed a reasonably factual statement to me - maybe we need a wikileaks clarification???

Force protection

MK 6 uses dolphins and sea lions as sentries to protect harbor installations and ships against unauthorized human swimmers. MK 6 was first operationally deployed with dolphins during the Vietnam War from 1971 to 1972 and in Bahrain from October 1987 through June 1988. When an enemy diver is detected by a dolphin, the dolphin approaches from behind and bumps a device into the back of the enemy's air tank. This device is attached to a buoy which then floats to the surface, alerting the Navy personnel of the intruder. Sea lions carry a similar device in their mouth, but instead attach it by hand-cuffing one of the enemy's limbs. The animals depend on their superior underwater senses and swimming ability to defend against counterattacks.

Object recovery
An NMMP sea lion attaches a recovery line to a piece of test equipment during training.MK 5 is dedicated to the recovery of test equipment that is fired from ships or dropped from planes into the ocean; the team uses California Sea Lions to locate and attach recovery hardware to underwater objects such as practice mines. In this role they can out-perform human divers, who are restricted to short working times and limited repeat diving.

This team first demonstrated its capabilities when it recovered an ASROC (Anti Submarine Rocket) from a depth of 180 feet (50 m) in November 1970. The team has trained in the recovery of dummy victims in a simulated airplane crash.

Attack missions

The Navy says that it has never trained its marine mammals for attack missions against people or ships. The Navy stated that since dolphins cannot discern the difference between enemy and friendly vessels, or divers and swimmers, this would be a haphazard means of warfare; instead, the animals are trained to detect all mines and swimmers in an area of concern, and to report back to their handlers, who then decide upon an appropriate response.

 

[Conachair]

Check out about 14 minutes in - wild dolphins and fishermen working together in Brazil.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00rrd81/Human_Planet_Oceans_Into_the_Blue/

 

[rotrax]

That's a male, the females are much more attractive, without the big forehead. Also Dorado colouring is more complex and irridescent, much prettier than in the picture.

Yes,you are right,its a male or "Bull" Dolphin. I have caught and eaten these in Florida.Apparently the are among the fastest growing fish.A forty pounder can be only three years old.The charter skippers find my catch and release policy disturbing at some venues.First Mate-who is an exellent angler-and I only take one fish for the table when we go out.I tell them there is only the two of us and we can only eat so much fish but they still want to take everything! Perhaps they can sell it to local resturants.We will keep putting it back. The charter skippers at Whale Island Marina on Islamarada down the Keys are more enlightened and encourage catch and release.We go out from there when we can afford it.