oldgit
Well-Known Member
Fully understand your point but it just might get sufficient new buyers into the market for them to aspire to trade up to the more expensive end of the market.Critical mass. ?
Kevin Gaskell (CEO) leaves Fairline
- Thread starter ari
- Start date
pan
Well-Known Member
Interestingly a number of watch manufacturers were in fact using movements from a swiss manufacturer called ETA, often just changing top plates to their brand, essentially the same movements! Rolex & a few others do actually produce their own movements though. However I think the analogy is like boat manufacturers using the same engines, and I don't think buyers expect bespoke engines!
For me the quality of build is much more complicated than simply hull & topsides, I don't know the % costing of those 2 elements, but I suspect they are not more than 10% of the total build cost, so I can't see much of a saving there. Dealer profit seems to be between 20-25%, manufacturer would need 10%, marketing 5%, warranty & after sales 5%, so perhaps the build cost including manufacturing infra-structure is in the region of 50% of the retail price. By standardising certain aspects of the build between models there may be a saving of 10%, not a huge amount.
The only way to significantly reduce the price is through massively increasing the volume of production, but that would probably entail a big contraction of the number of builders, the market is simply not big enough.
For me the quality of build is much more complicated than simply hull & topsides, I don't know the % costing of those 2 elements, but I suspect they are not more than 10% of the total build cost, so I can't see much of a saving there. Dealer profit seems to be between 20-25%, manufacturer would need 10%, marketing 5%, warranty & after sales 5%, so perhaps the build cost including manufacturing infra-structure is in the region of 50% of the retail price. By standardising certain aspects of the build between models there may be a saving of 10%, not a huge amount.
The only way to significantly reduce the price is through massively increasing the volume of production, but that would probably entail a big contraction of the number of builders, the market is simply not big enough.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
I expect there will be a few dealers spluttering into their G & Ts over that and saying 'if only'
stelican
Well-Known Member
I expect there will be a few dealers spluttering into their G & Ts over that and saying 'if only'
Start spluttering that's where it is!
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
No way. The list price margin to the dealer may be 20-25% but he'll have to give most of that away in discount to the buyer. I happen to know a dealer for a well known brand of motorboat and he tells me his % margins on new boat sales are single figure %. Of course he may be lying but he has no reason to. It seems that buyers routinely get discounts of 15-25% on mainstream production new boats so that discount has to come from somewhere; some of it may come from the manufacturer but most will come from the dealer's margin
Nautical
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, and the rest !, saw an original invoice for a well known brand of a 50' somethingish the other day, 3 year old . All I can say is no one made any money on that sale, dealer or builder. There are med dealers moving stock out at sometimes cost + delivery and commissioning and waiting for the rebate at the end of the year from the builder for reaching £x T/O.
It is quite amazing that a business selling probably some of the most expensive luxury products in the world is actually a business model that makes very little money in terms of net % against T/O
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D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Sadly its also true of a lot of other industries too! These days, you run a lot harder for less reward and more hassle in many businesses!
Nautical
Well-Known Member
indeed, should have run a major PLC bank, run it into the ground and walked off with a smashing pay off and pension !
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Have you got a few customers like that then?
Nautical
Well-Known Member
Have you got a few customers like that then?
I wish! but then I would probably blow the deal by smashing him in the teeth
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
I didn't check this thread for a while, and I must say that I find the whole automotive vs. boat building debate totally laughable.
Sure, it's sufficient to have just a very little knowledge of automotive industry processes (and the knowledge of some folks here is obviously far above "very little"), to see how just about everything in the boat industry - design, testing, logistic, manufacturing, purchasing... you name it - is light years behind.
BUT!
Are you aware of which kind of PEOPLE is running the pleasure boating industry, on average?
I mean, if I should try to make a parallel with automotive, a boat building company is much more akin to what Chip Foose does in his hot rod shop, rather than what Alan Mulally did for Ford. No offence meant. For Chip Foose, obviously...
Now, would anyone in his right mind suggest him to go for lean, robots, platforms, etc.?!?
My bet is that the only boat building rationalization that most of us (and I'm saying "most" rather than "all" just because I'm aware that there are some teenager forumites, though also in their boots I wouldn't hold my breath) will live long enough to see is some level of post-shake out concentration, which actually already began.
But this doesn't necessarily mean a big costs reduction effort from those who will survive.
To some extent, it might even be the opposite: I can think of more than a few boat builders whose mentality is rather along the lines of....
Ok, now that only a few of us are left, it's about time to rip off customers again, as we did in the good old days.
Bottom line, if anyone thinks that we will see in the near future much better boats at much more sensible prices, think again.
We are talking of hot rods here, not cars. Some Chip Foose will always be glad to build one for you, but only as long as you are willing to pay.
Sure, it's sufficient to have just a very little knowledge of automotive industry processes (and the knowledge of some folks here is obviously far above "very little"), to see how just about everything in the boat industry - design, testing, logistic, manufacturing, purchasing... you name it - is light years behind.
BUT!
Are you aware of which kind of PEOPLE is running the pleasure boating industry, on average?
I mean, if I should try to make a parallel with automotive, a boat building company is much more akin to what Chip Foose does in his hot rod shop, rather than what Alan Mulally did for Ford. No offence meant. For Chip Foose, obviously...
Now, would anyone in his right mind suggest him to go for lean, robots, platforms, etc.?!?
My bet is that the only boat building rationalization that most of us (and I'm saying "most" rather than "all" just because I'm aware that there are some teenager forumites, though also in their boots I wouldn't hold my breath) will live long enough to see is some level of post-shake out concentration, which actually already began.
But this doesn't necessarily mean a big costs reduction effort from those who will survive.
To some extent, it might even be the opposite: I can think of more than a few boat builders whose mentality is rather along the lines of....
Ok, now that only a few of us are left, it's about time to rip off customers again, as we did in the good old days.
Bottom line, if anyone thinks that we will see in the near future much better boats at much more sensible prices, think again.
We are talking of hot rods here, not cars. Some Chip Foose will always be glad to build one for you, but only as long as you are willing to pay.
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rubberduck
Well-Known Member
I wish! but then I would probably blow the deal by smashing him the teeth
I got a very believable e-mail the other day offering me the chance to attend a course that will teach me how to sell, for a modest fee of course. I will forward it on to you.
Nautical
Well-Known Member
I got a very believable e-mail the other day offering me the chance to attend a course that will teach me how to sell, for a modest fee of course. I will forward it on to you.
He he ! thanks but according to the post below we are gangsters ! maybe a course on how to become mafiosa would be better
henryf
Well-Known Member
I'm not banging on about it but you're wrong!
http://www.fairline.com/en/boats/squadron/50/deckplan/lower-deck
and the fairlead… I think you mean the 48
Bang away, that's why we're here
We must be on different pages of the book, because when I link through I get a forward master cabin rather than a full beam mid ships master cabin.
The offending rear cleat arrangement, definitely off the Sq 50.
Henry
henryf
Well-Known Member
You will forgive me if I've made a schoolboy error somewhere because I'm not familiar with the Sq 58 but I think this is the layout.
A very different layout to the 60. Centre stairs leading down to the accommodation deck and no doorway from the bathroom to the passage leading to the forward cabin.
The Sq 60 for comparison showing the doorway in question.
There are a lot of steps everywhere.
As I said, please forgive me if I'm using the wrong layout for the 58, it isn't a boat I'm familiar with in the same way I know the current Fairline range having looked at them with a view to buying. Previously we had a Phantom 42 before the Princess 42 so I know that quite well.
Henry
henryf
Well-Known Member
Hmm. I sort of get what you are trying to say. Chip Foose is famous for his one off designs which are reassuringly expensive. But if you wanted the Chip foose magic without selling a kidney then buy something like the Foose edition F150 pickup. Around £10k dearer than a standard truck, probably 1/10th of the cost of having Chip build you a one off, maybe even less, I haven't called him up for a chat.
Harley Davidson are another company that offer customisation at a fraction of the price of people like Orange county who, incidentally, have embraced technology to the point where even they can offer custom chops for a fraction of their one off bespoke prices. Everyone is at it, look at the clothing design houses. On the one hand you can have a £4k waistcoat but they also sell £300 waistcoats for the more modestly pocketed clients.
Boats are never going to be sold in the same numbers as cars but a forward thinking company can introduce design, production and range consolidating measures to improve quality and reduce costs. Boats will never be cheap, they will always be eye wateringly expensive, available to a minute proportion of the population.
But what we are seeing from the top players are designs which deliver benefits unimaginable a few years ago. The problem of course is that it's a chicken and egg game. You need to be selling volume and winning margin to be able to re-invest. That could mean considerable change to the point where you can't modify your existing product, you have to start afresh.
If all you are doing is discounting boats to feed the workers your design team have their hands tied. You also need a bloody good design department with feet in both the reality and visionary camps. Boats aren't houses, they are boats so fundamentally they need to work. You also need to be a master of space utilisation. No longer can you get away with lost space or space used for the sake of using it. Every inch has to count and it all has to come together cohesively. Good design is fundamental to success.
Not all manufacturers have achieved this and unless they are able to change it will be their downfall.
Henry
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
You will forgive me if I've made a schoolboy error somewhere because I'm not familiar with the Sq 58 but I think this is the layout.
A very different layout to the 60. Centre stairs leading down to the accommodation deck and no doorway from the bathroom to the passage leading to the forward cabin.
The Sq 60 for comparison showing the doorway in question.
There are a lot of steps everywhere.
As I said, please forgive me if I'm using the wrong layout for the 58, it isn't a boat I'm familiar with in the same way I know the current Fairline range having looked at them with a view to buying. Previously we had a Phantom 42 before the Princess 42 so I know that quite well.
Henry
Wrong Sq58 Henry. That's the old model that ran till about 2009, it was replaced with a new Sq55, that later became Sq58, and finally had a Hilo platform added and became the 60. The post-2009 boats all had basically the same internal layout, including the big step down that you are referring to.
henryf
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that, as I said it isn't an era of Fairline boats that I'm familiar with. What I can say is that compared to what's out there the current Sq 60 has a lot of steps and the exit from the mid stairs heads surprised me, even at 6'2" with a good stride
Henry
Henry
EME
Well-Known Member
Bang away, that's why we're here
We must be on different pages of the book, because when I link through I get a forward master cabin rather than a full beam mid ships master cabin.
The offending rear cleat arrangement, definitely off the Sq 50.
Your point was: -
My point was
a) It isn't a V-Berth
b) The difference is only that isis midships
In fact the Master is bigger than say the Princess 52 .. and Im surprised you wouldn't have been taken by the increased head room.
Loads of other reasons in the accommodation ( potential for 3 doubles as opposed to 2) but the size of the Master Cabin ( as opposed to the position if you prefer midships) isn't a failing of the 50 vs the competition.
I suspect you are mixing the 48 and 50 ( the 48 does have a forward V-Berth) .. but whoever said they are the same platform is wrong .. the 50 is much more voluminous with a wider beam etc than the 48
Longer as well if you discount bathing platforms
Your image proves I was wrong about the cleat. Different to the Targa 50.
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admillington
Well-Known Member
You will forgive me if I've made a schoolboy error somewhere because I'm not familiar with the Sq 58 but I think this is the layout.
A very different layout to the 60. Centre stairs leading down to the accommodation deck and no doorway from the bathroom to the passage leading to the forward cabin.
The Sq 60 for comparison showing the doorway in question.
There are a lot of steps everywhere.
As I said, please forgive me if I'm using the wrong layout for the 58, it isn't a boat I'm familiar with in the same way I know the current Fairline range having looked at them with a view to buying. Previously we had a Phantom 42 before the Princess 42 so I know that quite well.
Henry
Henry - Not a problem, you know Princess, I know Fairline. It isn't helped by the fact they are all called the same. The SQ58 (pre 2009) is what JFM had. I saw the SQ50 right from when it was a cardboard mock up and could never could get the high slap look and still don't - works as the Targa 50.
Andrew
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