Allan
Well-Known Member
Following my recent thread about keels, I would now be interested to hear views on rigs. I will be buying a 30-33 foot bilge keeler for use in the Bristol channel.
Allan
Allan
Ketch v Sloop
- Thread starter Allan
- Start date
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Do a search on ketch - loads of posts /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Searush
Well-Known Member
To summarise, those that have a ketch love 'em, those that don't just display mizen envy.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Nice boat L-I-B.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Nice boat L-I-B.
sarabande
Well-Known Member
30ft is a bit too small for a ketch, though there are some around. you need a bit more distance between the masts to prevent interference to air flow to the mizzen. A yawl at that length is a possibility.
About 33ft it starts to make sense for a ketch rig, especially as you can then balance the boat more easily for self-steering, or depower it gradually, if short-handed.
For close-windedness (which you may need with bilge keels) though, a sloop (or cutter) rig is best.
About 33ft it starts to make sense for a ketch rig, especially as you can then balance the boat more easily for self-steering, or depower it gradually, if short-handed.
For close-windedness (which you may need with bilge keels) though, a sloop (or cutter) rig is best.
Seagreen
Well-Known Member
Yawls - now you're talking. Mmmmm!
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/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
The popularity of the ketch rig probably comes from some of the very large cutter rigged yachts built in the first half of the last century. A fine example of this is Irina VII, the King of Norway's racing yacht captured by the Nazis but turning up with the old Island Cruising Club's fleetof big yachts. When the availability of paid hands became less and less these yachts could not be easily handed by short handed crews and so they were "cut down" by decreasing the height of the mainmast, and hence the sail area of the mains'l, and mounting a mizzen. Seeing how well these were handled some owners turned to having new ketches built.
The optimum length for a modern ketch is about 40 to 45 feet, but this brings you over the 42 feet limit for some yachts.
Go for a yawl if two masts are your preference, but if a single mast is OK by you consider the cutter rig, with or without a bowsprit.
The optimum length for a modern ketch is about 40 to 45 feet, but this brings you over the 42 feet limit for some yachts.
Go for a yawl if two masts are your preference, but if a single mast is OK by you consider the cutter rig, with or without a bowsprit.
narooma
Well-Known Member
Quote,
The optimum length for a modern ketch is about 40 to 45 feet, but this brings you over the 42 feet limit for some yachts.
...............................................................................
Nice post but I seem to have missed something....what limit?
The optimum length for a modern ketch is about 40 to 45 feet, but this brings you over the 42 feet limit for some yachts.
...............................................................................
Nice post but I seem to have missed something....what limit?
Strathglass
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Quote,
The optimum length for a modern ketch is about 40 to 45 feet, but this brings you over the 42 feet limit for some yachts.
...............................................................................
Nice post but I seem to have missed something....what limit?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is quite a differance in the regulations for the construction, qualification requirements and use of a yacht under and over 42 feet.
Quote,
The optimum length for a modern ketch is about 40 to 45 feet, but this brings you over the 42 feet limit for some yachts.
...............................................................................
Nice post but I seem to have missed something....what limit?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is quite a differance in the regulations for the construction, qualification requirements and use of a yacht under and over 42 feet.
Searush
Well-Known Member
Qualifications for use of a yacht? Are we talking EU here or is this to do with chartering? AFAIK, sailors of pleasure yachts need no qualifications YET. And let's keep it that way please.
My boat is a Westerly Pentland. 31' - bilge keels, aft cabin & ketch rigged. Suits me & my family well enough that we have kept her 15 years & just spent a fortune to re-engine & epoxy treat her for another 15 years enjoyment. She won't win any races, coz I couldn't be @rsed to enter - stupid & pointless sailing to us, we like to go to interesting places rather than sail round in circles. Nevertheless, even with old sails, we will give most sail boats a run for their money if we happen to be on the same course.
My boat is a Westerly Pentland. 31' - bilge keels, aft cabin & ketch rigged. Suits me & my family well enough that we have kept her 15 years & just spent a fortune to re-engine & epoxy treat her for another 15 years enjoyment. She won't win any races, coz I couldn't be @rsed to enter - stupid & pointless sailing to us, we like to go to interesting places rather than sail round in circles. Nevertheless, even with old sails, we will give most sail boats a run for their money if we happen to be on the same course.
ean_p
Well-Known Member
I can think of a couple of safety related items and this tends to be the carrying of certain items like lifejackets etc but don't know of any construction and /or use items that are different....maybe you could expand on this as I'd be most interested.
Strathglass
Well-Known Member
Above 42 ft different navigation lights are required.
As far as I am aware above 42 feet many more regulations come into force as I think the vessel is then classed as a 'ship'
I certainly am not one to push for any more regulation of any kind.
As far as I am aware above 42 feet many more regulations come into force as I think the vessel is then classed as a 'ship'
I certainly am not one to push for any more regulation of any kind.
Allan
Well-Known Member
I have read that a ketch will not point as well when going to windward. Is it possible put details on this? Most of the boats I have seen are around 33 feet so just come into the sizes mentioned as suitable for a Ketch. I like the flexibility of a ketch or cutter ketch.
Allan
Allan
Allan
Allan
Salty John
Well-Known Member
The ketch won't go to windward as well as the sloop because the mizzen tends to be backwinded by the main.
There's a good article by Ted Brewer on the subject of rigs, here:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/foreaftrig.asp
Seasons greetings everyone!
There's a good article by Ted Brewer on the subject of rigs, here:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/foreaftrig.asp
Seasons greetings everyone!
ean_p
Well-Known Member
Think that that is 12mtr / 39 ft and is part of IRPCS and is really a visibility and layout statement which many nav lights would normally achieve, the big leap comes at 20mtr. As far as I understand there are few restrictions on any craft used privately under 70-80 feet and some several hundered tons, though this is only a vague understanding. It is non the less well up there past the ordinary.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Now you are really going for the controversy - not just one mast vs two (sloop vs ketch) but also one headsail vs two (introducing the cutter)!
Sadly the reality is that much of the benefits of multi-mast / multi-sail rigs were around making the sail sizes smaller, which have mostly been alleviated by lighter weight sail cloths and modern sail handling gear. Most of the disadvantages, in terms of extra complexity, extra windage and poor pointing ability remain.
So for normal coastal sailing a sloop is much more efficient - financially and performance wise. Long distance there are benefits from twin headsails, but used individually.
Sadly the reality is that much of the benefits of multi-mast / multi-sail rigs were around making the sail sizes smaller, which have mostly been alleviated by lighter weight sail cloths and modern sail handling gear. Most of the disadvantages, in terms of extra complexity, extra windage and poor pointing ability remain.
So for normal coastal sailing a sloop is much more efficient - financially and performance wise. Long distance there are benefits from twin headsails, but used individually.
oldgaffer1
Active Member
My boat is a cutter rigged ketch of some 30' LOD built to a modified L.F.Herreshoff design. I love the flexibility of the rig, especially the so called 'Old Man's Rig' of mizzen and staysail which I use when the wind gets up (or, when I get the wind up!). Generally goes like a train (for an old 'un) and regularly powers past many more modern designs when off the wind. The design sets the mizzen firmly in the cockpit. This position can be a pain but gives something to hang on to as do the mizzen stays and shrouds. Add a mizzen staysail and a spinnaker to the wardrobe and you can get the perfect set up for any conditions. Yes, you may not point as high but you benefit off the wind. Whilst mine has a shallow draft long keel, I have done some sailing on a bilge keeled Westerly Pentland ketch and found it to be an excellent cruising boat.
Renegade_Master
Well-Known Member
whats a yawl Sara?
chrishelen
N/A
My eventide has a long keel with bilge plates,for two years i sailed her as a sloop with a big fore sail on a bowsprit,she sailed ok,a bit sluggish and woulnt point very well,then i sailed her as a cutter this summer,when i got used to the rig and how to sail her she became a different boat,she will point much closer to the wind and off the wind she booms along like a train often faster than bigger newer boats which allways puts a smile on my face,i think in rig design we can look back to move forward.
Searush
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
whats a yawl Sara?
[/ QUOTE ]
A boat is a Yawl when the mizen mast is astern of the rudder post, or a Ketch if it is in front. In general, the mizen boom of a yawl will overhang the stern and be sheeted to a bumpkin, but this isn't always true as rudder posts can be quite a long way inboard for some hull shapes.
whats a yawl Sara?
[/ QUOTE ]
A boat is a Yawl when the mizen mast is astern of the rudder post, or a Ketch if it is in front. In general, the mizen boom of a yawl will overhang the stern and be sheeted to a bumpkin, but this isn't always true as rudder posts can be quite a long way inboard for some hull shapes.
Searush
Well-Known Member
Allan, you would be best advised to ignore all the biased opinions on here & get some sailing time in on the vessel of your choice.
As I said earlier, if you have a ketch, it's because you see their benefits. If you don't like them, you won't have one & won't understand their good points. I love mine!
As I said earlier, if you have a ketch, it's because you see their benefits. If you don't like them, you won't have one & won't understand their good points. I love mine!
