Keep off the rocks!

[V1701]

That could be true, but I would have thought that sailing between Croatia, Italy and Greece which involves 24 hour and 48 hour passages would qualify one for an ICC provided that one could prove the passages ..., and photos of my boat with me on it in those different locations would surely be sufficient proof?

Richard

FWIW if it was up to me I'd give you an ICC but a photo of you on a boat in Croatia or anywhere else is just that, a photo of you on a boat. It doesn't prove you sailed it there or begin to demonstrate what boat handling skills/seamanship you have. My ICC came up for renewal recently @ £45 a bit of a bloody cheek if you ask me so I thought I may as well do the CEVNI thing at the same time which is a £20 online test. I wouldn't set off down to the Med through France without familiarising myself with the rules, etc. first but I still had to jump through the hoop and pay the money to get the piece of paper...

 

[john_morris_uk]

That could be true, but I would have thought that sailing between Croatia, Italy and Greece which involves 24 hour and 48 hour passages would qualify one for an ICC provided that one could prove the passages ..., and photos of my boat with me on it in those different locations would surely be sufficient proof?

Richard

Passage making is the easy bit. The ICC is a pretty basic measure of boat handling amongst other things. The fact that you got from one port to another doesn't prove anything. You need to demonstrate a MOB, and some basic manoeuvring to get the ICC. It's not difficult.

PS I know of a famous single handed round the world sailor who failed his Yachtmaster exam. He couldn't organise a crew and he couldn't park the boat...

 

[zoidberg]

I hope I'm not alone in extending a 'hello' to BigMac and thanking him for his posting of at least two visually interesting videos. We've needed a fresh controversy here for a while now, so this is perhaps timely. Mr Rich's views are certainly neither nuanced nor ambiguous, and nor are the comments others have already made above.

All good stuff!

I hesitate to add 'grist to the mill' or 'fuel to the fire', reminding myself that there are those among us who are long-serving RYA Instructors, RYA Instructor/Examiners.... and even the occasional member of the Yachtmaster Standards Panel - with a deserved reputation not only for not suffering fools gladly..... he doesn't suffer fools at all.
I'm also reminded that I myself, after about 15 years of sailing big and small, racing and cruising, instructing, doing deliveries, holding all the RYA Sustificates AND ALSO being a professional navigation instructor, I then held the view I knew my stuff - and on occasion let that be known.

Nowadays, some 30 years further on, a few more thousands of miles in a few more logbooks, more races won and lost, many navigation conundrums/styles/problems/approaches later, and 'different boats/different long splices', I've come round to the view that the more I learn, the more I realise I still have to learn.

I'm really pleased to read of other's views, other's ways, other's solutions in these pages, for I sift and glean, and most weeks I take away another small nugget of knowhow. But.... there's always a whole lot of overburden to shift first.

 

[LittleSister]

I've just watched the vid. Talk about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing!

It's almost funny that you bang on about checking everything and always zooming in, when you slag off the RYA saying 'they're not teaching digital navigation' without having actually checked what they do and don't teach. (I found the syllabus that contradicts your claims in my second click in a Google search.)

I strongly suggest you take down that video and edit out those outrageous, ill-founded slurs ASAP.

(I should say I have no connection with the RYA (I am not even a member), except that I have found their courses (Yachtmaster Theory and Practical) and instructors excellent, suitably comprehensive, and decidedly undogmatic.

I suggest you also add clarification that your video only touches briefly on some of the issues and techniques involved, and that significant further study is needed to provide a proper understanding and the capability to navigate safely.

Your approach doesn't clearly or comprehensively identify the hazards faced. You don't justify the 'bullet points' in your checklist in any persuasive way. Even though most of them have some basis in practice, you have leapt from real (though not always carefully identified) issues to dogmatic assertions that variously miss, or go well beyond, the point they seem to want to address.

The whole vid seems to be based on the assumption you need to know exactly where you are at all times. Most of the time you just need to know where you're not. You don't need triplicate plotters and two navigators to do that.

Compliance with that checklist would rule out almost all the sailing I have ever done, yet I have somehow managed to sail without major mishap for decades, and can identify gaps in that checklist and other parts of the video.

You get off on the wrong foot by suggesting that electronic navigation means that 'accidents should be a thing of the past'. That seems to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of navigational (and other) accidents. Electronic aids (great though they are) have pretty much all the weaknesses of paper chart navigation, plus a few of their own. The principal one of the latter being that they tend to result in a misplaced confidence in the boat's position in relation to hazards. (Several of the accidents you highlight probably wouldn't have happened had the crews had to rely paper charts!)

I recommend you do a proper RYA course. You'd almost certainly enjoy it and learn a lot.

 

[RichMac]

I found the syllabus that contradicts your claims in my second click in a Google search.

There's some overlap here, I was writing my script in December, at the same time that RYA were releasing their digital project. So my statement was not correct - sorry!

But has anybody actually seen their syllabus? I guess we have to pay to find out. My video was not teaching how to use digital, but highlighting the ways it can go wrong, and how to make it safer. I hope most of these important points will be covered by the new RYA program.

In a previous post, I said that in my 45 years of offshore navigating I've made mistakes, been lost and frightened, and used a few too many guardian angels. But all those were in the pre-gps days, I've had no problems in the last 25 years, despite not using a paper chart for 15 years. But I have always been very careful and attentive, determined not to make the same mistakes as the ones identified in the video. That's why I said that accidents should be a thing of the past, it's just a case of being careful, but us humans are not very good at that!

 

[RichardS]

Passage making is the easy bit. The ICC is a pretty basic measure of boat handling amongst other things. The fact that you got from one port to another doesn't prove anything. You need to demonstrate a MOB, and some basic manoeuvring to get the ICC. It's not difficult.

PS I know of a famous single handed round the world sailor who failed his Yachtmaster exam. He couldn't organise a crew and he couldn't park the boat...

To be honest, I'm not really convinced that night-time passage making is the easy bit, but either way, surely you can't do the passage making without the boat handling at either end?

Richard

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

To be honest, I'm not really convinced that night-time passage making is the easy bit, but either way, surely you can't do the passage making without the boat handling at either end?

Richard

I have an acquaintance that could pass such a test, but wouldn't let my kids sail with him.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I've had reason to thank navionics on one occasion when making a night approach to IoM from Anglesey. We were aiming for port St Mary where none of us had visited before and mistook the red light in the channel between the Calf and mainland for the red on the breakwater at PsM. The boat hadn't got a card for the plotter so I fired up my tiny Samsung phone (which was low on battery) which revealed we were 2.5nm west of where we thought we were and heading for possible disaster. It was a case of believing the light was the one we wanted to see.
Strangely my much more experienced friend who was an hour behind us made the same mistake despite having an up to date chart plotter. Complacency?

 

[RichardS]

I have an acquaintance that could pass such a test, but wouldn't let my kids sail with him.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, John. I've withdrawn your invite to next week's pub lunch.

Richard

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, John. I've withdrawn your invite to next week's pub lunch.

Richard

I'm coming anyway matey - I've got to show you the ICC I blagged by way of a 'phone call....

ps. The chap in question is a one huller.

 

[laika]

I did my ICC with a RYA accredited instructor, a half-day sail and a theory test after. My ticket was issued by MCA, IYT. My test covered nothing about digital nav.

Isn't "IYT" an entirely separate operation from the RYA who do their own dayskipper? Per sarabande's post #6, digital navigation is not "new" in the DS course: the announcement GHA posted was about them updating it. They've been doing it for years. Did you do an IYT course rather than an RYA one? A quick google shows RYA online DS courses from the well-known providers coming in at under £300 so your half day practical must have been expensive to bump your total spend for 3 people to 4.5k AUD.

 

[zoidberg]

your half day practical must have been expensive to bump your total spend for 3 people to 4.5k AUD.

Sheesh! At that sort of 'spend' I could have flown out to Oz, hired a boat, run the course for the 3 of you - together with ICCs - and would still have had change to go to the pub a couple of times.

Or, cheaper still, we could have sent your choice of YBW's pet member examiner-instructors. There's a good handful to choose from....

 

[dunedin]

I thought it was a useful and well made video, engaging and thought provoking (though perhaps a little too much of a Navionics sales pitch - lots of other good navigation apps available).
Certainly spot on about the Clipper issues - and the fact that they had NOBODY doing the navigating when they hit South Africa, and no plotter to show the helm that they were about to bump into a major continent. Reading the formal MAIB report was extremely shocking, as quite a few other boats in the fleet nearly did the same thing, and they suggested one boat actually may have hit ground but continued on into the southern ocean without stopping to inspect the keel (if I recall the report correctly).
Some useful pointers and advice, which many could benefit from.
(Perhaps edit out the comment about RYA - whether right or wrong it just stacks up a needless argument with some)

 

[Imwa]

I am afraid that the video is inaccurate; the RYA schools certainly do teach electronic navigation.. Much of the advice is common knowledge amongst sailors and is certainly taught on RYA courses. The sad thing is that the way that it is put across is not exactly helpful. Furthermore, some of the assertions in this video are very much a matter of opinion, and as the saying goes, "opinions differ".

I declare an interest as I teach and examine for the RYA some of the time. The upside of this is that I know what is going on and what is really happening. Sadly, the OP trying to prove his point with a slack handful of well publicised cases where the navigation of the yacht was seriously deficient doesn't wash IMHO.

 

[Imwa]

This is a great video and it should be mandatory viewing for all sailors gaining recreational certifications.
Very sad to see some of the negative comments - If you posted one, may I suggest you take a step back and review all the major yachting accidents in recent years, then ask yourself - If all in this video had been learned and followed could the accident have been avoided?
The greatest impediment to improvements in yachting safety seem to be those with vested interests, hidden agenda's or inflated ego's.
Just look at it for what it is, extract the positives ( there are many) and help improve the safety levels for all sailors.
Cheers Pete.

 

[bikedaft]

This is a great video and it should be mandatory viewing for all sailors gaining recreational certifications.
Very sad to see some of the negative comments - If you posted one, may I suggest you take a step back and review all the major yachting accidents in recent years, then ask yourself - If all in this video had been learned and followed could the accident have been avoided?
The greatest impediment to improvements in yachting safety seem to be those with vested interests, hidden agenda's or inflated ego's.
Just look at it for what it is, extract the positives ( there are many) and help improve the safety levels for all sailors.
Cheers Pete.

the vid misses the essential point (raster vs vector). i agree about the negativity, but alas the OP demonstrates a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Edit the OP is well intentioned...

 

[Crinan12]

I enjoyed your video Rich thanks for posting it. I like your presentation style and you seem like a really nice bloke as well.
I recently completed the day skipper and yacht master RYA theory courses and I was surprised at the lack of digital navigation covered. We spent ages on traditional navigation which was good, but I'd like to have covered more on digital stuff because as you say it is what we are all using
I hope you keep up the videos.
Thanks

 

[dunedin]

the vid misses the essential point (raster vs vector). i agree about the negativity, but alas the OP demonstrates a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Edit the OP is well intentioned...

That is a matter of your opinion.
I am not convinced there is an issue about vector vs raster charts. I suspect all chart source data is now vector, including the UKHO stuff.
The issue is about how some/most plotter software chooses to present vector data. For some odd reason the software does not summarise by using the most dangerous depth in an area, it often seems to summarise an average or something equally useless.
The fault is the software used to display it, not the charts. And the software could be fixed very quickly if there was a will to do so.

 

[bikedaft]

That is a matter of your opinion.
I am not convinced there is an issue about vector vs raster charts. I suspect all chart source data is now vector, including the UKHO stuff.
The issue is about how some/most plotter software chooses to present vector data. For some odd reason the software does not summarise by using the most dangerous depth in an area, it often seems to summarise an average or something equally useless.
The fault is the software used to display it, not the charts. And the software could be fixed very quickly if there was a will to do so.

no, not all charts available are vector. that is simply wrong.

people tend to believe the electronic read out with no idea of why different charts are used on different devices/programs/apps nowadays, and what the electronic differences between e.g bitmap, jpeg and vector data compression.

to be fair you do not need to know why there differences - but you must be aware of each type's limitations. and when to use each (personally i think you need both types on board, or at least; paper OR raster AND vector. if i only had one i would choose raster for exactly the reasons the OP mentioned. but, as you say, that's my opinion, the rest is fact.)

from Google; "Raster (or bitmap) images are described by an array or map of bits within a rectangular grid of pixels or dots. Vector images are described by lines, shapes, and other graphic image components stored in a format that incorporates geometric formulas for rendering the image elements. "

so Raster are bitmap's or essentially scanned copy of a chart. Vector are reconstructed from compressed data. and when you zoom out are a lot more likely to not display rocks/hazards. zooming in at the level required to see them becomes practically impossible, due to the amount of scrolling to do, disorientation as to where exactly which part of the proposed voyage you are looking at, etc.

(it helps me to remember things if i know the reason why...)

almost exactly the same as planning and local area paper charts. but (the Admiralty anyway) are good at putting the rocks to avoid on their planning charts. the vector charts are not, when zoomed out at a level sufficient to plan.

a side issue is the clunkyness of moving between tiles/bitmaps on raster, there is a good way to do this, but was not taken up by the industry, alas (a friend worked on this).

 

[bikedaft]

looking at it another way, its a systems failure - as you say, the majority of chartplotters use a system that fails to show dangers, without it being obvious to the user. and a lot of the users seem unaware of this risk. perfect recipe for (multiple) groundings.

but users get blamed.