Keel/Rudder design

[RJJ]

Reversing them for a start ;-)

Some long keelers or "long fin" designs are absolute pigs to steer downwind in a seaway. That substantially increases risks associated with broaches, uncontrolled gybes, and also simply crew/autopilot exhaustion/failure. Doesn't mean those designs can't go offshore or in blue water; certainly doesn't mean ALL in that category can't go offshore or in blue water.

Keel joint on a modern fin keel is just one of the hundreds of things on a yacht that require maintenance / inspection. Doesn't mean it's not suitable for crossing oceans.

 

[rogerthebodger]

but you could equally drive across Europe in a Ford. You don't NEED to have a 4x4 to do it.

In the same way that you can equally sail across the Atlantic is an AWB

Yes you can but its more likely to sustain damage in a Ferrari than a 4x4 Landrover when it get rough just like when crossing the Atlantic is an AWB.

When the going get tough the tough get going.

FORD what does it mean first on "rubbish dump" I have owned a ford but not a UK or USA ford

 

[pvb]

Yes you can but its more likely to sustain damage in a Ferrari than a 4x4 Landrover when it get rough just like when crossing the Atlantic is an AWB.

Ferraris are remarkably robust bits of machinery, despite their delicate appearance, and can cope with roughish roads without difficulty.

FORD what does it mean first on "rubbish dump"

That sort of slur is on a par with the drivel which coopec spouts. You may think that driving a Ford is below you, but they are sound, honest vehicles designed to last many years.

 

[Graham376]

Yes you can but its more likely to sustain damage in a Ferrari than a 4x4 Landrover when it get rough just like when crossing the Atlantic is an AWB.

When the going get tough the tough get going.

FORD what does it mean first on "rubbish dump" I have owned a ford but not a UK or USA ford

So AWBs not suitable for Atlantic crossings? This is what the surveyor said about my 32 year old one -

a cruising design from the board of Bill Dixon. She is of fin and skeg hull form and of moderate displacement, with a double spreader sloop rig. This has proved to be a popular class of yacht, and with her SA/D (sail area/displacement ratio) of 16.22 and an almost 40% ballast ratio is very suitable for blue water use. Although the design predates the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) requirements she should properly be compared with designs in RCD Category ‘A’ Ocean.

My 21 year old Ford still passes annual test with no snags

 

[rogerthebodger]

Ferraris are remarkably robust bits of machinery, despite their delicate appearance, and can cope with roughish roads without difficulty.

There are roughish roads and roughish roads Even the F1 cars damage the underside when going over a kerb on an F1 track. I am talking roads we be in the colonies not in Europe

That sort of slur is on a par with the drivel which coopec spouts. You may think that driving a Ford is below you, but they are sound, honest vehicles designed to last many years.

As I said I had a Ford designed and built for rough roads you get in Australia and served me very well in my trips into the wilds of Africa.

Its all about design for the environment and being fit for purpose. UK cars don't seem to last in the colonies very well except the old peugeot.

 

[dankilb]

Sticking with the car analogies - every boat (or car) is a compromise (unless you're in the custom/super... realm of both). Equally, an ocean can then be analogous to a motorway journey if you plan it that way (especially with PredictWind, etc.).

The compromise of my AWB is therefore no different to a motorway cruiser, that is also fine around town and - if you put it towards the task - would probably manage okay off road too (if anyone's seen RoadKill YouTube/MotorTrend?),

Add to that, not all AWBs are created equal (nor are long-keelers) and compromises can further be mitigated through seeking out design features (ours has a skeg-hung rudder, linkage steering, over-specced rig, etc.), modifications, or major refits (e.g. ours has a nearly-new Beta 50).

And just like a car, I'd rather be in a well-maintained and updated (but less suitable/specialised) vehicle, than one that was made for the job originally, perhaps some time ago (because who can afford a new one), and hadn't been maintained to an equal standard.

We're currently aiming to get at least as far as Indonesia (from N Wales) in our AWB and I highly doubt the keel will fall off. Whereas - as opposed to a long-keeled, custom-built, ketch/clipper, etc. etc. - our boat was under budget, available nearby, had the volume we want/need, is simple to work on, still has some parts availability, is fast (and yes, sails fine to windward for our needs), and has plenty of other features in common with the revered bluewater designs. We're undertaking a full refit, so that will add to both peace of mind/safety.

Plenty of others are have weighed up similar compromises with their AWBs and are out there crossing oceans as we speak and as they have done for decades now and will continue to do - in far greater numbers, relatively speaking, than long-keeled 'bluewater' boats.

 

[rogerthebodger]

So AWBs not suitable for Atlantic crossings? This is what the surveyor said about my 32 year old one -

I did not say that what I said " Yes you can but its more likely to sustain damage when it get rough just like when crossing the Atlantic is an AWB. "

To clarify an AWB is more likely to sustain damage when it gets rough when crossing the Atlantic.

a cruising design from the board of Bill Dixon. She is of fin and skeg hull form and of moderate displacement, with a double spreader sloop rig. This has proved to be a popular class of yacht, and with her SA/D (sail area/displacement ratio) of 16.22 and an almost 40% ballast ratio is very suitable for blue water use. Although the design predates the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) requirements she should properly be compared with designs in RCD Category ‘A’ Ocean.

Clearly you boat was designed some time age where design specifications were different

My 21 year old Ford still passes annual test with no snags

Yes but what environment and usage does your car have.

Both my Nissan 200SX and my wife's Honda are over 22 years old and lightly used in town environments.

My newer Toyota 4x4 has been used off road quite a bit as well as towing and as a mobile workshop has not faired too well bodywise but still going strong after 150 000 Km long distance travel through the African bush

 

[Bobc]

Yes you can but its more likely to sustain damage in a Ferrari than a 4x4 Landrover when it get rough just like when crossing the Atlantic is an AWB.

When the going get tough the tough get going.

FORD what does it mean first on "rubbish dump" I have owned a ford but not a UK or USA ford

Who mentioned Ferraris? An AWB is not the boat equivalent of a Ferrari, but are often likened to a Ford (i.e. daily driver). I would be happy to drive across a continent in a Ford, BMW, Audi, Jag, Merc, Kia, etc.

But now you mention it, I think there are currently 32 floating Ferraris heading for the Southern Ocean.

 

[pvb]

There are roughish roads and roughish roads Even the F1 cars damage the underside when going over a kerb on an F1 track. I am talking roads we be in the colonies not in Europe

But you were replying to Bobc who said "but you could equally drive across Europe in a Ford."

You can see how people get confused by your posts.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Who mentioned Ferraris? An AWB is not the boat equivalent of a Ferrari, but are often likened to a Ford (i.e. daily driver). I would be happy to drive across a continent in a Ford, BMW, Audi, Jag, Merc, Kia, etc.

Most of those manufactures have both off road and on road vehicles so like boats you would use one designed to the conditions you may expect on the roads you plan to drive on.

But you were replying to Bobc who said "but you could equally drive across Europe in a Ford."

I would drive across Europe in a Ford and have driven across Europe in my Austin Maxi many years ago.

I would prefer to use my Toyota 4x4 to drive into the wilds of Africa, even through I have driven my Ford as far a Malawi and back. but only on tar roads.

If you see what hitting a warthog does to the from of a normal car you will understand. A warthog is quite small animal compared so we encounter on our roads

You can see how people get confused by your posts.

No I cannot see any confusion, and if any does get confused they ask for clarification. Or are you just trying to have a dig. Let people speak for themselves.

 

[Rappey]

The reason this is an issue, as I said, is this poorly-judged rumour has potential to affect the value of our boats.

Forums are full of problems so by your logic they all affect the value of the item being discussed rather than something being chosen because there is so much information and help available online?

Reversing them for a start ;-)

Not aware of any boats that are sailed backwards? Some rarely sail forwards ! ?

but what he should do is...what he said he would do, and pipe down.

So the op is not allowed to express what he believes/his opinion but you are ?

"The fact is all boats are over engineered?" ? I have no idea but - trying to build them to a price and making many as light as possible does not sound like an over engineering exercise ?
11 pages so far, gives more than enough information for people to make their own informed conclusion ? but lets not confuse a person's opinion with claimed fact

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Ferraris are remarkably robust bits of machinery, despite their delicate appearance, and can cope with roughish roads without difficulty.

As long as there's no speed bumps. And the route doesn't take you across Albania.

WTF can't people stay on topic and what drives them to defend anything mentioned?

Falling off a wave's about equivalent to hitting a speed bump in a Ferrari at 70 (any one care to critique the analogy?) Knew someone who did so in a Contessa 26 mid-Atlantic and cracked his bulkhead right through. Would have thought they were at the tougher end of the WBs.

 

[pvb]

As long as there's no speed bumps. And the route doesn't take you across Albania.

WTF can't people stay on topic and what drives them to defend anything mentioned?

I wasn't the first to mention Ferraris, I was merely responding. I took one of mine on a 3000 mile European trip, with zero problems, including some fairly primitive roads, but speed bumps (rare then) are a potential problem because of the front spoiler's limited ground clearance.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Not a keel/rudder issue but what would be the result of this happening to an AWB

Metal Hull vs Fiberglass - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

 

[pvb]

Not a keel/rudder issue but what would be the result of this happening to an AWB

Metal Hull vs Fiberglass - Page 2 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

You are Brent Swain and I claim my £5.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I wasn't the first to mention Ferraris, I was merely responding. I took one of mine on a 3000 mile European trip, with zero problems, including some fairly primitive roads, but speed bumps (rare then) are a potential problem because of the front spoiler's limited ground clearance.

Same issue I have with my Lotus be we have lots of speed bumps around mainly on town roads and our security village and holiday home compound

 

[rogerthebodger]

You are Brent Swain and I claim my £5.

Brent who ?


Sorry to disappoint you wrong continent and its alot warmer where I am.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I'd be quite happy discussing the merits of short and long keels, unsupported rudders vs skeg or keel supported, but his thread has gone quite silly; on both ends.

What next, anchor recommendations for the Ferrari?

The idea that the op's opinion could impact the resale value of fin keel boats is nonsense and about as likely as that a junk rig fan's enthusiasm could render all jib-headed sail obsolete. To forestall any possible litigation regarding this statement: I have absolutely nothing against junk rigs.

Fact is: boats have lost their keels. Why and how is another matter. How often this happens is pretty much esoteric and one is probably just as likely to die in a plane crash. I do have to wonder though, how thin-skinned fin keel sailors appear to be, especially ones that sail a Benny.

IMHO, sailing around the edges of the sea is much more dangerous and, not to say difficult, than sailing across. The latter just seems so much scarier.

 

[NormanS]

I' be quite happy discussing the merits of short and long keels, unsupported rudders vs skeg or keel supported, but his thread has gone quite silly; on both ends.

What next, anchor recommendations for the Ferrari?

The idea that the op's opinion could impact the resale value of fin keel boats is nonsense and about as likely as that a junk rig fan's enthusiasm could render all jib-headed sail obsolete. To forestall any possible litigation regarding this statement: I have absolutely nothing against junk rigs.

Fact is: boats have lost their keels. Why and how is another matter. How often this happens is pretty much esoteric and one is probably just as likely to die in a plane crash. I do have to wonder though, how thin-skinned fin keel sailors appear to be, especially ones that sail a Benny.

IMHO, sailing around the edges of the sea is much more dangerous and, not to say, difficult than sailing across. The latter just seems so much scarier.

I just meant to click on "Like", but fat finger syndrome has meant a necessary reply. ?