Keel/Rudder design

[Rappey]

I thought it looked rather flimsy

I'm sure it's strong enough for its purpose, but if it gets snagged on anything then I can see it bending directly below the tab that bolts to the keel or even worse, ripping it out of the keel.
The tab should be at the base of the bracket and be larger with more bolt holes.

I unbolted mine in one tide after 37 yrs of being submerged ,trotted up to my shed, made a new bush out of that plastic used for pile guides, beat it into the mounting and bolted it back on. Was a walk in the park !

 

[Lucky Duck]

I'm sure it's strong enough for its purpose, but if it gets snagged on anything then I can see it bending directly below the tab that bolts to the keel or even worse, ripping it out of the keel.
The tab should be at the base of the bracket and be larger with more bolt holes.

I unbolted mine in one tide after 37 yrs of being submerged ,trotted up to my shed, made a new bush out of that plastic used for pile guides, beat it into the mounting and bolted it back on. Was a walk in the park !

If it remains in the OP's back garden then I am sure it will be fine.

 

[Skylark]

Yes you are absolutely correct and that was very telling. However I suppose a yacht manufacturer can distance themselves from their responsibility to subsequent owners especially if there is evidence of grounding. But if a prospective new buyer makes this sort of enquiry to the manufacturer they can make their own judgement of the merits of proceeding with the purchase against the sort of response they receive.

I can’t think of a single good reason why a boat manufacturer would give repair instructions to any Tom, Dick or Harry with which they subsequently have absolutely no control over the willing amateurs’ adherence to the spec.

Under those circumstances, would you buy a boat repaired and warranted by an authorised dealer or done by a pair with no prior experience but “to instructions given by the manufacturer”

Good luck to the couple but their story is totally irrelevant to the silly OP quoted claim that modern boats are not good for blue water cruising.

 

[TernVI]

This looks like the link I was looking for:

Beneteau rebuild turning into a nightmare - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

A young couple with no previous boat building experience apparently tended for a damaged Beneteau 49 and they are trying to re-attach the keel.

That's a pretty big boat.
The big the boat, the less difference between 'grounding' and 'shipwreck'.
You can drop a dingy onto rocks and only do superficial damage. A 22ft GRP yacht is touch, but has enough mass to do itself real damage. It gets worse as the boat gets bigger, kind of cube/square law effect?

What was the history of it?
A lot of yachts get wrecked in marinas by hurricanes etc. Written off by insurance.
Doesn't really matter if it's GRP, steel, ferro or wood. The sea and the weather can break it.

I think with 'modern' GRP design, the structures can be stiff at the expense of 'tough'.
You can run a Sigma 33 into the rocks at speed and the keel will be pushed back, the top back of the keel will bend the hull breaking some floors. Most of it will spring back, not quite as strong as it was, but serviceable. You can see what's really broken and fix it.
Do that with a grid-floor matrix construction and the hull is too stiff to absorb any impact, a lot more damage is done and a lot of it is hidden.
It's like crumple zones in cars. A moderate bang and it's scrap.

You buy a 'salvage' yacht, you're naive if you think the damage will just be superficial. It's salvage as in 'breakers yard'.

Not that it can't be fixed, but it's going to be a case of building new structure. A lot of work and it will never be back to original.


I think a bit of the problem is that old-skool GRP boats were very tough, and we got blase about bumping around the shallows, playing dodgems at race marks and leaving them in marinas through the winter gales/hurricane season/(insert your own news-worthy weather)? Things became insurable risks which were not the case with wooden boats and are no longer the case with high tech boats. Also yachts have got bigger. A 25ft boat bouncing off a quay wall is cosmetic, a 45ft boat doing the same is an expensive mishap.

Also we expect GRP to last forever, while a wood or steel boat we accept it degrading over time. There's a lot of boats out there which are seriously 'high mileage' if they were cars they'd be old bangers reduced to local use or Egyptian taxi service. Some AWBs have very hard lives and should not be expected to be 'good as new' after a decade or whatever. The first owners have their value out of them, write them down on the accounts and flip them for new ones. The factories are selling to people who buy new, not the third owner who's whingeing about repairs. White goods. Consumer semi-durable. Just because they cost the same as a small house, don't expect the durability.

Most of the yards building boats to last forever went bust for a reason.

 

[Rappey]

You can have a workshop repair manual for a car so why not have technicals available for a boat?
Sometimes amatuers with skills can make a better job than the so called professionals who are in it to make money and do it as quick as possible rather than take time to give attention to detail and not cut costs.
Why is the op,s opinion silly just because you have a difference of opinion, especially when its shared with someone who has been there and done it ?
A long keel can collide with an object and saill off unscathed. The same collision on a awb could compromise the keel joint, bend or snag the prop shaft or even rip the rudder off.
People carry many survival and safety items so why not have a more survivable boat to match the kit onboard?

 

[NormanB]

Perhaps you can remind me which of the videos you're referring to.

from about 07:30 for around 4 or 5 mins.

 

[NormanB]

I can’t think of a single good reason why a boat manufacturer would give repair instructions to any Tom, Dick or Harry with which they subsequently have absolutely no control over the willing amateurs’ adherence to the spec.

Under those circumstances, would you buy a boat repaired and warranted by an authorised dealer or done by a pair with no prior experience but “to instructions given by the manufacturer”

Good luck to the couple but their story is totally irrelevant to the silly OP quoted claim that modern boats are not good for blue water cruising.

They never asked for repair instructions.
They asked what bonding agent was used.

 

[rotrax]

Yes you are absolutely correct and that was very telling. However I suppose a yacht manufacturer can distance themselves from their responsibility to subsequent owners especially if there is evidence of grounding. But if a prospective new buyer makes this sort of enquiry to the manufacturer they can make their own judgement of the merits of proceeding with the purchase against the sort of response they receive.

You can inspect your new Island Packet at any stage of the build.

An Island Packet keel will never fall off, but the rudders - pretty trouble free in use - are spades with a weed shoe support and bearing fitted across the gap between keel and rudder bottom.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

The world’s ‘safest’ blue water yacht launched - MySailing.com.au

Any comments?

£800,000+

Is it the "safest" since the Titanic? Or because at that price it comes with its own 24/7 lifeboat crew?

Daft claim. For whom and in comparison to what?

What's the flotation ratio?

 

[coopec]

As this thread's about keels and rudders, perhaps we should consider best practice in rudder attachment. Some rudders I've seen don't look very robustly attached, especially with an unbalanced rudder resulting in high stresses. Here's just one example - does the forum think the lower bearing attachment to the keel looks adequate?

View attachment 102971

?
That is my yacht! (This is priceless )

What is wrong with the way I have attached the lower bearing? I have done it in accordance with the designer's plans. Not surprisingly you think you know better than the designer. (it's your Dunning Kruger syndrome at its' worst on display!)?

As well as the bolts through the side of the keel (My idea) it has two heavy (15mm?) bolts through the back of the keel as per desiner's plansl!! (The fiberglass would be 1 in. + thick at that point)

??Talk about a loser!

Geez PVB you've become absolutely irrational! (Go take a Bex and have a lay down) ???

 

[coopec]

£800,000+

Is it the "safest" since the Titanic? Or because at that price it comes with its own 24/7 lifeboat crew?

Daft claim. For whom and in comparison to what?

What's the flotation ratio?

At least the keel won't fall off! (For £800,000+ you'd expect something pretty decent though)

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

from about 07:30 for around 4 or 5 mins.

What I learnt from that is the most important thing for becoming a sailor these days is having your teeth whitened.

If you enjoy my sarcasm, please donate to my Patreon account. Your free money makes my misery possible. For $20 a month, I'll even do it wearing a bikini too. How long do you think the novelty factor of donor led sailing channels will last?

For me, that 50' boat is either too big or too small to be really safe on the inside. Whereas the hull may be reinforced, I look at it and imagine how being thrown around the inside with nothing to grab for 10' would feel like. I don't understand it. It's not even particularly fast.

 

[NormanB]

What I learnt from that is the most important thing for becoming a sailor these days is having your teeth whitened.

If you enjoy my sarcasm, please donate to my Patreon account. Your free money makes my misery possible. For $20 a month, I'll even do it wearing a bikini too. How long do you think the novelty factor of donor led sailing channels will last?

For me, that 50' boat is either too big or too small to be really safe on the inside. Whereas the hull may be reinforced, I look at it and imagine how being thrown around the inside with nothing to grab for 10' would feel like. I don't understand it. It's not even particularly fast.

Interesting perspective.
My guess is that the vast majority of viewers who put their hands in their pockets are from the USA. Individual Americans are much more generous in spirit - Brits lean towards the mean of spirit and I guess you are very firmly to the right of that spectrum.

 

[coopec]

What I learnt from that is the most important thing for becoming a sailor these days is having your teeth whitened.

If you enjoy my sarcasm, please donate to my Patreon account. Your free money makes my misery possible. For $20 a month, I'll even do it wearing a bikini too. How long do you think the novelty factor of donor led sailing channels will last?

For me, that 50' boat is either too big or too small to be really safe on the inside. Whereas the hull may be reinforced, I look at it and imagine how being thrown around the inside with nothing to grab for 10' would feel like. I don't understand it. It's not even particularly fast.

On another forum I made sarcastic remarks about their fund raising to finance their lifestyle and boat restoration. But then I thought people like Dashew, Knox Johnston, Hiscocks, Adlard Coles who wrote books, found a publisher who then sold the books to whoever was interested enough to buy them. These people make videos, publish them on YouTube and some people pay.

What is the difference?

 

[Skylark]

Sometimes amatuers with skills can make a better job than the so called professionals who are in it to make money and do it as quick as possible rather than take time to give attention to detail and not cut costs.

You don’t seem to have a good opinion of “so called professionals” but have trust in “sometimes amateurs with skills”. This is going further and further away from the OP and there’s no point my trying to counter your entrenched views.

Why is the op,s opinion silly just because you have a difference of opinion, especially when its shared with someone who has been there and done it ?

The OP states that modern boats are “definitely not for blue water cruising” I think it a silly comment because there are many, probably the majority, of blue water cruisers enjoying their lifestyle in modern boats. It’s a polarising view feeding hysteria to the weak and feeble and, as we’ve already seen within the thread, it quickly leads to plainly untrue and potentially libellous comments “everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau”

 

[Skylark]

They never asked for repair instructions.
They asked what bonding agent was used.

I don’t see a difference between asking for comprehensive repair instructions or only a part thereof.

Let me offer another example. A few weeks ago you posted about a guy trying to repair a turbo, later to remove the turbo and run the engine as naturally aspirated. I watched his video and, based upon my 20 years experience in that business, concluded that he was a bodger. At one point he sheared a bolt. Do you think that IHI should supply a replacement? IHI have no control or influence over his amateur dramatics. Instead, he bought one from the hardware store, clueless as to the required specification or the implications of using a wrong part.

Removing the turbo and running it NA, do you think that Yanmar/Volvo should be at the receiving end of bad press when his antics don’t solve his original problem?

 

[sarabande]

I am more than slight concerned that the attachment appears to be rusting even ashore. And it is definitely flimsy. Held on by a single bolt ?

However, the other point of concern is the gap between the bottom bearing and the rudder: it is guaranteed to grab any passing line and rip the bottom of the rudder off the hull.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

On another forum I made sarcastic remarks about their fund raising to finance their lifestyle and boat restoration. But then I thought people like ...
What is the difference?

Knox Johnston never wore a bikini & had his teeth whitened to sell books (meaning there's a degree of cynicism and materialism in the means and targeting of their profiteering, while not saying something; that I don't believe the majority of authors have, while also having something to say).

More poor them, who makes any money out of writing sailing books? On an hourly rate it pays pennies. I'd say it was done more out of love at their own cost.

I think the poster above puts their finger on it, it's as American as multi-level-marketing; the business model that demands you treat every relationship, every friend and family interaction, into a self-interested, potential financial transaction.

Johnston didn't end each chapter with a "send me money" beg.

Thing is, it's been a kind of fad in which the first generation profited highly from the novelty but has now become a form to be exploited which presumably will go out of fashion due to oversaturation.

Have we passed Peak Patreon yet?

At one point he sheared a bolt. Do you think that IHI should supply a replacement?

Logically, that's a bit of a non sequitur isn't it? For example, I'm pretty sure IHI would specify the grade of bolt and which sealing compound to use in the manual, which would be the equivalent. No? They went asking Beneteau to replace something that they'd broken. If I was Beneteau, I'd be sending someone round to have a look at things to work out what went wrong.

May be they asked the American Bennie importers who were afraid of being sued?

 

[Skylark]

Logically, that's a bit of a non sequitur isn't it? For example, I'm pretty sure IHI would specify the grade of bolt and which sealing compound to use in the manual, which would be the equivalent. No?

In what way do you think it is non sequitur?

I doubt very much that IHI would specify a grade of bolt, they sell comprehensive service kits and these, usually, start with sensible guidance that service should be undertaken by a qualified and experienced technicians with access to all recommended equipment and procedures to safely tear down, clean, measure, replace, rebuild, balance and test.

Of course, feel free to DIY but please don’t libel the manufacture when either it breaks or it doesn’t fix the root cause of the original problem.

It’s relevant that you think turbos use sealing compound. They don’t. They use seals. Sealing compound is a bodge and is pretty much uncontrolled in the hands of an amateur with real risk of excess causing foreign object damage through a wheel, destroying it. Well made assumption, exactly my point.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

In what way do you think it is non sequitur?

The boat owners asked for information, ie which glue I think it was.
Your example included asking for replacing a damaged item.
But the boat owners weren't asking for Beneteau to replace the damaged item.
Therefore, non sequitur. A bad equivalent.

By sealing compound I mean a manual or tech will stipulate which Loctite grade (or not) etc.

Taken at random from a parts manual for an IHI-27V4; "part number: 0517 080 20 Bolt, Treatment (W/L.W, F.W)".

The abbreviations specify details for the bolt along with sizes, & pitch.

Looking at a manual for an IHI RHG6, it specifies Red Loctite. Another (KKK) stipulates Loctite 640.

Bolts, of course, are a bad example to choose as their grade is normally identified on the head with markings.

So, there you go. I, a total novice at Turbos, run a ring around you, a professional in the trade. Evidence that amateurs with half-a-brain and a little integrity can sometimes do a more conscientious job than people who charge for it.

Which we all know from sticking our cars into dodgy garages.

(I suppose you'll respond that Loctite isn't a 'sealing compound', it's a 'compound for sealing' threads or something...)