Keel cracks

nct1 said:
So a number of boats have cracks (38s as well as 42s), one loses a keel, the manufacturer changes their build method during the production run, and recalls 150 boats
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One documented problem that the MAB brigade has dined out on for 5 years. They made a mistake, commissioned a design fixed, got the fix approved by some Euro naval architect body and remedied the problem within 18 months.

By contrast Westerly resorted to multiple bankruptcy, phoenix stunts and left the keel reinforcement fix to the diy laminating skills of owners. This happened across a multitude of models spanning a decade or two.
 
orbister said:
"csharpatsea has not made any friends yet "
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Orbister, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury has publicly stated he is worried about weak characters like you who measure their social status by toting up online friend counts.

But until you can get professional help, can I suggest you register with FaceBook to see how many teenage girls will make friends with you.
 
csharpatsea said:
You are suffering from false memory syndrome, what actually happened is that you have a vague recollection of a technical report commissioned by Bavaria where 5 years ago it was reported that according to pure GRP material science 8mm would be enough, whereas the actual thickness was 13mm.


Now that is pure delusional nonsense. The inner bilge tray moulding on my Bav is 7mm to 8mm thick. The suggestion that the hull is 4mm is utter libelous rubbish, I'd be surprised if my cockpit locker lid is that thin.


When you are bracing a foot on the inside of the door of a saloon locker watching green water flowing down the coachroof windows, I can assure you the word "knockdown" will spring to mind.


Let me see if I can summarize.

You have not had much contact with GRP boats, but you are pretty contemptuous of 80% or 90% of grp yachts made in the last 40 years.

Your prime interest is classic boats but you have amassed an extraordinary insight into Bavaria yacht construction techniques while you have crawled over a large number of semi wrecked Bavaria hulls, taking precise measurements of laminate thickness, all recorded in your log book?

And you expect us to take your contributions in this thread seriously?
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My father is a surveyor who has considerable experience in looking at wrecked and semi wrecked boats and I have been with him to see many boats. I know the laminate thicknesses because I have seen core samples taken from boats when they've had their keels replaced.

Please don't take a primary interest in Classic boats as ignorance of GRP. I am not the one guessing or assuming the laminate thickness of ones hull by the build of an internal bilge tray.
 
csharpatsea said:
Orbister, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury has publicly stated he is worried about weak characters like you who measure their social status by toting up online friend counts.

But until you can get professional help, can I suggest you register with FaceBook to see how many teenage girls will make friends with you.
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Do you think we could leave the personal insults and vague accusations of sexual impropriety aside and stick to the issues?

PS You're welcome to check my list of friends here ... you may find it strangely familiar ...
 
orbister said:
That's unfair. Westerly had years and years and years to go bankrupt lots of times. Bavaria has only gone bust once, but then they've not been around as long. Give 'em time.
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Actually that is probably not true. The various Bavaria forms have been going for about 30 years - similar lifespan to Westerlys, but different start and end point. Bankruptcy in the way we know it in the UK is not so common in Germany, but I would think the level of financial stability over time is similar.

Have to say, though the squillions involved in the latest restructuring of Bavaria do put them in a league of their own.

The bigger they come, the harder they fall.
 
orbister said:
That's unfair. Westerly had years and years and years to go bankrupt lots of times. Bavaria has only gone bust once, but then they've not been around as long. Give 'em time.
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Your dates are wrong.

Westerly spanned about 28 years including a few bankruptcy whereas Bavaria production dates back to 1980 I think, so let's call it 29 years.

orbister said:
Bavaria has only gone bust once
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I did not know that, it must have been many years ago
 
Way off topic - Bavaria bashers/fans keep out....

Guys. I know there is a sterotype of Bav owners being a little oversensitive about keels, but this is way off topic. Why not just create a new thread:

Bavarias are great/rubbish. Discuss?
 
csharpatsea said:
I did not know that, it must have been many years ago
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From the December PBO, page 10:"The investors who paid €1.3bn for German yacht manufacturer Bavaria in 2007 have been forced to accept losses believed to be in the region of €1bn, according to the financial press. Venture capitalists Bain Capital and two German banks were forced to sell their shares for up to 70% less than they originally paid. The new owners have restructured the company's debt..."

There's another article at http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/406078/bankers-and-bain-lose-a-billion-on-bavaria

Look on the bright side. A company which is losing millions building boats is by definition giving the customers better value than one which is making huge profits.

csharpatsea said:
Well indeed. So what prompted..
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I quoted part of your profile verbatim, and - I thought obviously - tongue in cheek. That's not quite the same as using phrases like "weak characters like you" and "can I suggest you ... see how many teenage girls will make friends with you" is it?
 
Tranona said:
To Orbister and Woodlouse.

You fall into the trap of thinking that everything old is good and everything new is no good.

Now I can afford one, but things move on and one realises there are many better products available now. Its a bit like going back to a Cortina Mk5 compared to my C Max. Just in a different league.

There is a place for old boats in the market place as the market prices show because they offer potential for people to have the kind of boat they want at an affordable price and if well looked after will last well. The style of many older boats is often not available new because either that is not what new boat buyers want or is too expensive to build, so if you like that style you have to buy used. However in doing so you have to accept the downsides that go with buying an older boat. But it is clear that many people like me are not prepared to accept those negatives and prefer to buy a newer boat.

You never know, if you tried it like I have you might find you actually like it!
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I can't disagree with much of your old vs new argument. It would be a sad world if we werent making progress and I'm sure we are. The likes of bavaria will have access to cheaper prices for better raw materials because of volume. They will have a more consistent product - only a fool thinks "hand made" means quality. But equally they are focussed on a price point and offering a good value package which means they arent in the business of doing more than the minimum.

They are the Ford of boats, or maybe the Citroen. Good value, reasonably solid mass market. But dont think they are the BMW or Merc of boats because they cant afford to be.

But to carry the car analogy further, just as you can take a Citroen down the motorway, you can take a Bav across the ocean. You wont be as comfortable as you would in a Merc or an Oyster but then you havent paid the same money.

One area where many AWBs arent quite up to scratch is hull design where volume has triumphed over hydrodynamics. Sure you can get AWBs with brilliant hull design like the Firsts but the average cruiser does suffer from being made for a charter market and to give the maximum internal volume.

I'd happily have a Bav - certainly in preference to a 70s Westerley. But thats a personal choice which is why I went for a 90s Starlight.
 
Tranona said:
Set against the context of 3000 boats a year........

And the second link concerned a boat that was built when Bavaria would have been what some call a "quality" builder, that is in 1980's style.

Never said they were immune from problems, just trying to keep things in perspective. If all you want to see is problems that is what you will see. However in just looking for problems you are ignoring all the thousands of boats (like mine) that don't have problems.
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Ah I see, it's the size of the systemic failure that is important.

However you appeared to be ignoring the tens of thousands of boats built before yours that don't have problems when you said

Tranona said:
These photos clearly illustrate why I don't think I would ever touch a boat of this era - built before there was full understanding of the properties of the materials in use, never mind the poor construction and finish in the bits you can't see.
.
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orbister said:
Venture capitalists Bain Capital and two German banks were forced to sell their shares for up to 70% less than they originally paid. The new owners have restructured the company's debt..."
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Right, so Bavaria did not go bust as you claimed and Bavaria has made yachts for as long as Westerly.

At the height of its commercial success in 2006 the family controlled Bavaria decided to sell out to some private equity group that got its valuation sums seriously wrong. Rather than limp along slowly crippling the company over a decade to a point where it was no longer a going concern, the new owners effectively said, "yup fair cop we miscalculated" and sold the company on again for a much lower value.

Such events do not constitute a bankruptcy of the manufacturing operation. Was a receiver ever appointed? No. Did Bavaria ever enter some German equivalent to Chapter 11? No.

Private equity corporate speculators got their gingers burnt, that's all.
 
csharpatsea said:
"My dad said...".

No further comment needed.
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If his opinion is good enough for all the major insurance companies and the MCA then it's more than good enough for me. The fact he's also a qualified Naval Architect with over 25 years of experience surveying means that what my dad says is pretty much gospel.

Sorry if I take his word over yours.
 
Woodlouse said:
If his opinion is good enough for all the major insurance companies and the MCA then it's more than good enough for me. The fact he's also a qualified Naval Architect with over 25 years of experience surveying means that what my dad says is pretty much gospel.

Sorry if I take his word over yours.
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What does your dad think of Beneteau Firsts??
 
Woodlouse said:
If his opinion is good enough for all the major insurance companies and the MCA then it's more than good enough for me. The fact he's also a qualified Naval Architect with over 25 years of experience surveying means that what my dad says is pretty much gospel.
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I am not questioning your dad's credentials but your interpretations of his comments or his data.

If we take your your opinions as also your dad's opinions, then he should immediately write to the MCA and those insurance companies demanding that all Bavaria's be confined to harbour.

Now if your dad posted on this formum and said "in my professional opinion the average Bavaria has an average laminate thickness of 4mm one foot away from the keel center-line" then I would sit up and take notice.

A 4mm hull thickness is just ridiculous, Bavarias would be getting holed all over the place and taking their owners to the bottom. That this is not happening only serves to undermine your daft assertions in the name of Daddy.
 
phantomlady said:
What does your dad think of Beneteau Firsts??
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I'm afraid I'm not here to voice my fathers opinions, this is one of the reasons I don't reveal my identity on these forums.

What I've said here about Bavarias is my own opinion formed from what I've seen when working with him.

I can tell you what I think of Beneteau Firsts, but my experience of them is limited only to a couple of regattas. I've never been involved with a damage survey for one, which is when you start to learn about how well certain boats are put together.
 
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