Keel cracks

[csharpatsea]

Why do Bavaria owners always try to blend into the Ben/Jen/Bav category? There are pretty big differences between the brands in terms of build quality

Go on then, enlighten us.

I need some specifics so I can deconstruct your argument.

 

[Ubergeekian]

What keeps the RNLI in business are those elements of the offshore MAB navy, who seem unaware of the dangers of cumulative wear and fatigue in their yachts.

Have you any evidence for that? I'd be genuinely interested to see some statitics on the ages of boats rescued by the RNLI.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The backing plates are larger than anything you would find on a Westerly or Moody and for good reason. Re. the "penny washers", they are about 6mm thick and of similar dimension to the square washers show in a photo in this thread.

As far as I can tell from the pictures, the big backing plates are 6" x 6", the small ones are 6" x 3" and the washers are about 2" diameter. The keel seems to be held on with a grand total of eight bolts, which look abouut 10mm diameter.

My 1976 Westerly Jouster keel is held on with sixteen 1/2" stainless bolts which go through a 3' (feet) x 8" x 1/4" steel backing plate. OK, so the layup beneath it wasn't great, but the metalwork is MASSIVE compare to those Bavaria pics.

As I said, they may well be fine now ... but in thirty years?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Anyhow since Ben/Jan/Bavs must account for over 50% of Euro yacht construction you have just insulted a lot of yachtsmen with your caravan allegation.

There has always been a market for floating caravans. Look how many Centaurs were sold, all with the sailing qualities of a Dormobile camper van.

The big difference is where they live. Thirty years ago most boats lived on swinging or drying moorings so a solid bilge keeler was the ideal. Nowadays anyone who can afford a new yacht almost certainly keeps it in a marina, so big flimsy things with maximum entertaining space sell well.

 

[Pete7]

If you do buy .. .. Just think how you will explain away the damage to the next guy / guyess who asks ....

Quite, it might be a really nice boat but it has a problem. It is a major financial purchase, why take a risk? unless you can wipe £10k off the price to make it very worth your while sorting it out. If not walk away which I think BD has decided to do.

Pete

 

[VictorII]

Right. You'll have to visit http://www.bavariaowners.co.uk now for some support from fellow mobile home owners. You're always welcome to start a thread about how Bavaria constructs superior backing plates, fits adequately sized winches and anchoring gear, and how well it stands up to 30 years of abuse.
But I won't be there to watch.

 

[csharpatsea]

Right. You'll have to visit http://www.bavariaowners.co.uk now for some support from fellow mobile home owners. You're always welcome to start a thread about how Bavaria constructs superior backing plates, fits adequately sized winches and anchoring gear, and how well it stands up to 30 years of abuse.

Thanks for confirming you have nothing substantive to contribute on the subject.

Best get back to your school project now, mummy and daddy will be home from work soon.

 

[Woodlouse]

Why?

Having sailed my Bavaria through 40kts offshore I would be more worried handling the same conditions in a typical 30 year old Westerly or Sigma. I was knocked down to 50 or 60 degrees in a line squall half way across Lyme bay, nothing failed and the autohelm held its course controlling my modern deep efficient spade rudder.

In similar conditions a typical undersized MAB rudder with typical hideous hydrodynamic properties, would have stalled, the boat would have broached right into the wind and a sail or two would have shredded.

Had I been rolled over to 60 degree in a typical aging MAB my thoughts would have been:

1 - How much hull laminate was lost during the the last osmosis peel, will the keel break off?

2 - After 30 years of mast flexing are the spreader sockets about to give way and bring the mast down in the 40kts conditions?

3 - After 30 years of use are the engine mounts about the give way and let the engine free to try and destroy the hull?

4 - If the engine breaks loose will the prop shaft tear loose and let the sea flood in?

5 - If the engine stays on its mounts is corrosion in the exhaust cool circuit about the flood my boat?

The truth is MAB owners don't get out much and do much sailing, they fail to see that the majority of offshore mileage is clocked up by modern fin keel/spade rudder yachts. MAB owners are typically retired and physically not up to arduous offshore sailing which leaves them with too much free time to pollute internet forums with their cantankerous delusions.

In the past 3 years I have clocked 12 overnight solo offshore passages, singlehanded from the Solent, around the fastnet and back, and delivered my Bavaria to SW Brittany and back solo.

I actually know what I am talking about, unlike the average MAB owner restricted to a life of virtual keyboard sailing or boatyard DIY projects.

Ex. Jonjo.

The reason why is i've seen too many Bavarias undergo major reconstructive surgery after minor groundings. I know how thick the hull laminate is around the keel (8mm if your interested) and I know that a foot outboard of the keel it goes down to half that. I've seen Bavarias that have had their forestays pull out of the stem because the laminate there is less than 12mm. I've seen Bavarias where the keel and rudder don't line up properly and I've seen Bavarias provided with AVS curves that can only be described as fanciful. When you question Bavaria on any of this they either respond with the phrase "it's within spec" or they don't respond at all.

I'm sorry to say that I don't consider 50 or 60 degrees to be a knock down. And to be honest if I was concerned about anything in the hull giving up or shifting at that angle then I wouldn't be anywhere near the boat. Let alone at sea in a gale in it.

The accusations that I think old is good new is bad I'm afraid aren't strictly true. There are builders out there who are making fine boats, mostly in Scandanavia. I've never felt much attachment to any of the older fiberglass designs either coming as I do from an almost exclusively classic sailing background I'm afraid I hold most tupperware designs old and new in pretty low regard.

 

[VictorII]

CSharpatsea, I thought I just did. Checking a poster's profile can reveal interesting things, I suggest you try it some time.

 

[csharpatsea]

As far as I can tell from the pictures, the big backing plates are 6" x 6", the small ones are 6" x 3" and the washers are about 2" diameter. The keel seems to be held on with a grand total of eight bolts, which look abouut 10mm diameter.

That was a very telling post and confirms to me how the mind of a Westerly owner works. Without any real clues about scale you see what your prejudices want you to see.

Scaling up from my Match 35, I reckon the main plate on the 42 would be 15" square.

From memory the circular backing plates are 3" or more. The studs are in the 12mm to 14mm range and are reassuringly chunky on my match 35.

Re. a total of 8 bolts on the 42. Yes that was a design mistake, particularly the single leading bolt. By the time the Match 35 went into production Bavaria upped the bolt count to 11 for a keel that is 0.6 of a ton lighter.

 

[Tranona]

Right. You'll have to visit http://www.bavariaowners.co.uk now for some support from fellow mobile home owners. You're always welcome to start a thread about how Bavaria constructs superior backing plates, fits adequately sized winches and anchoring gear, and how well it stands up to 30 years of abuse.
But I won't be there to watch.

Many thanks for the link. Have just joined.

Hopefully there won't be any ignorant bigots there like the ones that crop up from time to time here!

 

[VictorII]

And what size bolts are they? And what thickness is the laminate to which it's bolted? From the pictures, the backing plates are not across structural elements, just the hull laminate.

 

[VictorII]

Oooooh!

But I'd still be a bigot with a Moody, so I don't really mind being called ignorant.

 

[flyingscampi]

I suggest the OP starts a new thread and leaves this one for the community to continue squabbling over this AWB vs MAB nonsense.

 

[Ubergeekian]

That was a very telling post and confirms to me how the mind of a Westerly owner works. Without any real clues about scale you see what your prejudices want you to see.

I'm trying as best as I can. If it's reasonably standard teak/holly flooring, the teak strips are around 1.5" wide, no? And the big backing plate is about 4 teak strips along each side ...

 

[nct1]

Where have you any evidence they are not strong? Strength comes from design and materials appropriate to the loads. Mine is 9 years old and nothing has broken or fallen off.

Not quite sure why you are posting these links here - other than, I guess to knock Bavarias.

The failure on the Match 42 was well reported at the time. However, despite the death there does not seem to have been an official investigation and report so there is no definitive conclusion published. As I understand it (from as good a source as the ones quoted) the boat had been subject to a bit of "rock bashing" beforehand. The failures were unique to that model, which is (or was) very different from any other Bavaria. The builder subsequently modified all boats of the class - indeed one of the owners in the UK posted a series of photographs of the work on here at the time. So it is difficult to see how this can be used to illustrate a systematic failure amongst boats from that builder - if that is what you are trying to do.

The other link is about an earlier boat that is built in the same way as the Sigma on this thread as can be seen from the photograph and the internal damage (probably resulting from a grounding) demonstrates that the method of construction is not trouble free.

If you look hard enough you can find failures in keel hull joints - particularly fin keels from just about every designer/builder.

Er you asked for the evidence, why complain when it is provided ?

So a number of boats have cracks (38s as well as 42s), one loses a keel, the manufacturer changes their build method during the production run, and recalls 150 boats, but apparently this does not "illustrate a systemic failure amongst boats from that builder".

With respect to the second link, it sounds like you now agree that Bavarias are not immune from such problems.

 

[Ubergeekian]

CSharpatsea, I thought I just did. Checking a poster's profile can reveal interesting things, I suggest you try it some time.

"csharpatsea has not made any friends yet "

 

[Tranona]

CSharpatsea, I thought I just did. Checking a poster's profile can reveal interesting things, I suggest you try it some time.

Quite right. I see you have a Moody 36 - year unknown - but is it the one where the skegs break off and the keels twist, or get osmosis, or have mild steel fuel tanks that rust out - or mild steel keel bolts that rust in or steering gear that seizes because water drips on it, or mast compression pads that collapse, or bulkheads that rot because of water ingress.

I could go on but I won't because you might get embarrassed.

BTW just a few of the endearing features I have seen in various Moodys that I have seen over the years when I get the urge to buy a proper boat. Thankfully one gets over the temptation very quickly.

 

[csharpatsea]

The reason why is i've seen too many Bavarias undergo major reconstructive surgery after minor groundings. I know how thick the hull laminate is around the keel (8mm if your interested)

You are suffering from false memory syndrome, what actually happened is that you have a vague recollection of a technical report commissioned by Bavaria where 5 years ago it was reported that according to pure GRP material science 8mm would be enough, whereas the actual thickness was 13mm.

and I know that a foot outboard of the keel it goes down to half that.

Now that is pure delusional nonsense. The inner bilge tray moulding on my Bav is 7mm to 8mm thick. The suggestion that the hull is 4mm is utter libelous rubbish, I'd be surprised if my cockpit locker lid is that thin.

I'm sorry to say that I don't consider 50 or 60 degrees to be a knock down.

When you are bracing a foot on the inside of the door of a saloon locker watching green water flowing down the coachroof windows, I can assure you the word "knockdown" will spring to mind.

There are builders out there who are making fine boats, mostly in Scandanavia. I've never felt much attachment to any of the older fiberglass designs either coming as I do from an almost exclusively classic sailing background I'm afraid I hold most tupperware designs old and new in pretty low regard.

Let me see if I can summarize.

You have not had much contact with GRP boats, but you are pretty contemptuous of 80% or 90% of grp yachts made in the last 40 years.

Your prime interest is classic boats but you have amassed an extraordinary insight into Bavaria yacht construction techniques while you have crawled over a large number of semi wrecked Bavaria hulls, taking precise measurements of laminate thickness, all recorded in your log book?

And you expect us to take your contributions in this thread seriously?

 

[Tranona]

Er you asked for the evidence, why complain when it is provided ?

So a number of boats have cracks (38s as well as 42s), one loses a keel, the manufacturer changes their build method during the production run, and recalls 150 boats, but apparently this does not "illustrate a systemic failure amongst boats from that builder".

With respect to the second link, it sounds like you now agree that Bavarias are not immune from such problems.

Set against the context of 3000 boats a year........

And the second link concerned a boat that was built when Bavaria would have been what some call a "quality" builder, that is in 1980's style.

Never said they were immune from problems, just trying to keep things in perspective. If all you want to see is problems that is what you will see. However in just looking for problems you are ignoring all the thousands of boats (like mine) that don't have problems.