Kayaks in the solent and inshore

We were out on Sunday, weather was a bit changeable and the forecast was for 10-11 knot + NW winds. Very few angling boats were out. Of the few that did go out, most, if not all, came back early and either gave up, or fished the rivers. We came out of Harwich and headed SE, planning to spend a couple of hours fishing in the Stone Banks area, which should have provided a bit of shelter from the wind. Unfortunately, there was a 2-3 foot swell, which we sat beam on to, so it was uncomfortable to fish. We headed North, where it was still a bit lumpy, but we managed to find a bit of shelter by keep close to a sand bank, which stopped the swell a bit. There were a lot of yotties about and a few mobo's, but all were staying close to the shore, where the conditions were better.

The conditions were far from dangerous, or even rough, but almost all the boats on the water decided to stay close to shore, where conditions were more pleasant than further offshore.

We heard on the VHF that there were a group of 9 kayakers out on the water, they had left Felixstowe Ferry and were heading for Roughs Towers. This was a journey of around 7nm (in a straight line), in winds that developed into 16 knot N Westerlies, with a 3 feet swell fairly close to land, no doubt more the further offshore you went. They would have had to paddle directly across the tidal flow, during a Spring tide. They would have also had to cross the deep water shipping channel for Ipswich/Harwich/Felixstowe and the recommended yacht track alongside of the channel, both of which are the busiest areas on the East Coast. The channel and surrounding area is also used by the pilot boats that escort the ships in (some of the largest ships this country sees, many having crossed directly from China). It also gets a lot of use at the moment from various workboats that are constructing/maintaining the various offshore windfarms in the area, such as a fleet of 16m x 6m cats that cruise at 20knots. As we returned, we stopped for half an hour to put some fishing tackle away and have a cuppa, just inshore of the channel, off Landguard point. In that short time, we were passed by a couple of large ships, several yotties and no less than 5 large cats, all travelling at circa 20 knots.

The area they were travelling through really is the last place you'd expect to find kayaks out for a jolly. Kind of makes one consider that if they want to paddle about in the busiest and fastest shipping area on the entire East Coast, making no attempt to make themselves more visible, then perhaps if they get run down by a fast boat, they only have themselves to blame. Never mind Colregs and lookout and some of the replies in this thread, to be in this area, in these conditions is quite simply reckless, IMO. The North Sea is a big place, there is plenty of room for us all, but everyone should make themselves seen as best they can and stick to sensible areas for the craft they are using. Shipping lanes are for shipping, not canoes.
 
So what you are saying is that it's acceptable to mow down people who are hard to see? So Cyclists, pedestrians & dogs are fair game when driving a fast car because you don't want to slow down? :confused:

Do you get extra points for running over motorway workers? :rolleyes:

I wonder why it's illegal to take a moped on a motorway :rolleyes:
 
Sea kayakers will be well aware that they cannot win a collision with another vessel (any more than the rest of us could really) and so will generally keep out of the way of other water users.

You (and big ships) may may find it hard to see kayaks (although I have never found them less than obvious) but they can sure as heck see the rest of us in bigger boats & will usually avoid them.

I really do think that your insistence that this craft or that shouldn't be on a specific bit of water is the thin end of a wedge that would eventually ban all leisure craft from the sea.
 
Paul,

I have no idea of who was paddling or how they got on but to put it into context:

You describe a forecast of F3 building to F4 with a wave height of less than 1metre. To a seakayaker that is a 'good' forecast in which a fit and competent paddler may well plan a 7nm open crossing. The fact that you were uncomfortable in these conditions has little bearing on how a seakayak would be affected. An experienced paddler should be able to handle 3m swell and
F6/7 if neccessary.

Your spring rate equates to just over a 1 knot cross track tide, a perfect ferry glide as Roughs Tower lies 'downtide' of Felixtowe Ferry. My kayak passage planning speed would be around 4 knots off the wind and with the swell.

The deep water shipping channel out of Harwich is around 0.25nm wide. That would take about 3 minutes to cross at a sprint. If you include the North and South channel then say 10 minutes at the most. No different to any other small displacement craft.

The kayakers were in a large group and, assuming the correct ratio of experienced paddlers, would be well able to look after themselves.

They were obviously in contact with VHF and able to announce their presence if they felt they needed to. And if you didn't see them how do you know what precautions they took to make themselves visible?

It is clear that you simply do not understand the capabilities of these craft or the care and planning that goes into a trip like this.

The approach to sea kayaking is very similar to the mountaineer or any other adventurous sport: full responsibility for your own safety is taken. There are known risks and so precautions are taken, plans are very carefully made and experience is built slowly.

To make such a negative assessment with so little information is sadly rather typical these days. I dunno what it is but I’m agin it!
 
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Paul,

I have no idea of who was paddling or how they got on but to put it into context:

You describe a forecast of F3 building to F4 with a wave height of less than 1metre. To a seakayaker that is a 'good' forecast in which a fit and competent paddler may well plan a 7nm open crossing. The fact that you were uncomfortable in these conditions has little bearing on how a seakayak would be affected. An experienced paddler should be able to handle 3m swell and
F6/7 if neccessary.

Your spring rate equates to just over a 1 knot cross track tide, a perfect ferry glide as Roughs Tower lies 'downtide' of Felixtowe Ferry. My kayak passage planning speed would be around 4 knots off the wind and with the swell.

The deep water shipping channel out of Harwich is around 0.25nm wide. That would take about 3 minutes to cross at a sprint. If you include the North and South channel then say 10 minutes at the most. No different to any other small displacement craft.

The kayakers were in a large group and, assuming the correct ratio of experienced paddlers, would be well able to look after themselves.

They were obviously in contact with VHF and able to announce their presence if they felt they needed to. And if you didn't see them how do you know what precautions they took to make themselves visible?

It is clear that you simply do not understand the capabilities of these craft or the care and planning that goes into a trip like this.

The approach to sea kayaking is very similar to the mountaineer or any other adventurous sport: full responsibility for your own safety is taken. There are known risks and so precautions are taken, plans are very carefully made and experience is built slowly.

To make such a negative assessment with so little information is sadly rather typical these days. I dunno what it is but I’m agin it!

That's all good to read then. No worries about having to keep an eye out for them.
 
:D:D If you see a pot buoy then it's probably the bobbin' head of my redoubtable co-conspirator on this thread :D:D

Only if it's white . . . :D


Don't underestimate canoes & kayaks as a safe form of transport & don't disrespect them. We all have a responsibility to keep a good lookout - just as they do. A kayak is typically 13' long (more if a sea boat) and 6-8" freeboard plus around 3' x 18" of paddler. I find it hard that anyone can fail to see such a boat if keeping a reasonable lookout. If you just take a quick glance - they could be lost between the waves, but they can't possibly stay there, a few seconds later they will be on top of the wave & fully visible.

As an ex-experienced kayaker I can still self-rescue (eskimo roll) and 2 kayakers together should easily be able carry out an X rescue in any conditions. We are not noisy or obnoxius & cause no nuisance whatsoever - all we ask is give us a fair chance.
 
It is clear that you simply do not understand the capabilities of these craft or the care and planning that goes into a trip like this.


A couple of years ago a sea kayaking adventurer set off from southern Tasmania for a voyage across the Tasman Sea to New Zealand, approx. 1000 miles. The guy was declared to be one of the sports finest, most experienced exponents.
After a previous failure, he was determined to achieve this goal.

Great fanfare on the departure day with plenty of media coverage etc., as he kissed his wife and two very small boys goodbye on the beach, the cameras panned back to the family with tears streaming down their faces as Dad paddled off into the sunset.

He had every piece of safety equipment known to mankind........they still haven't found him!
 
A kayak is typically 13' long (more if a sea boat) and 6-8" freeboard plus around 3' x 18" of paddler. I find it hard that anyone can fail to see such a boat if keeping a reasonable lookout. If you just take a quick glance - they could be lost between the waves, but they can't possibly stay there, a few seconds later they will be on top of the wave & fully visible.

Thats what my post is about, they are not visible while drifting.

If there is a group even if they are taking a rest there will be one or two paddles in use, it is the white water from the paddles that is first visible from a cable.

If they stop paddling they disappear until you get closer.

Many of these kayaks are being used for fishing and they seldom paddle, they are wearing dark gear and they are not in bright canoes, I accept a Sea kayak built for distance has a free board but the fishing kayaks are different .

I doubt many of these fishing Kayaks could sprint across a shipping lane in 3 minutes.

Bearing in mind you need to be almost on top of them before you can see them I expect there will be an incident sooner or later, and it could well be from a sailing boat alright they only travel at 7 knots but much of the view is servilely restricted and they tend not to keep a constant forward watch as a power boat @ 25 knots.
 
A couple of years ago a sea kayaking adventurer set off from southern Tasmania for a voyage across the Tasman Sea to New Zealand, approx. 1000 miles. The guy was declared to be one of the sports finest, most experienced exponents.
After a previous failure, he was determined to achieve this goal.

Great fanfare on the departure day with plenty of media coverage etc., as he kissed his wife and two very small boys goodbye on the beach, the cameras panned back to the family with tears streaming down their faces as Dad paddled off into the sunset.

He had every piece of safety equipment known to mankind........they still haven't found him!

I watched a documentary about him, one of the saddest things I have seen for a long time. The fact that as he was waved off by his wife and family all in tears and as he paddled off he too was in floods of tears... I thought it was one of the most selfish things a Dad could do... however that's the spirit of a true adventurer I guess...

http://www.andrewmcauley.com/
 
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That story is truly sad.

This is clearly another issue and certainly not one unique to seakayaking. Just look at those who leave their families to go ocean racing in Volvo 70's or even those who risk their lives powerboat racing at Oulton Broad. It's not my place to judge what risks others find acceptable, but I certainly wouldn't do it my self.

Remember that the Tasman sea is probably the most dangerous open crossing there is - for any vessel.

Whilst obviously emotive, it is disingenuous to associate weekend sea kayakers with this type of solo attempt on a 1000 mile open sea voyage.

The equivalent would be to say that because so many people die climbing on Everest that we should ban climbing in Peak District!

I'm afraid your comparison is inane, cynical, and disrespectful.
 
I'm afraid your comparison is inane, cynical, and disrespectful.


Just look at those who leave their families to go ocean racing in Volvo 70's or even those who risk their lives powerboat racing at Oulton Broad. It's not my place to judge what risks others find acceptable, but I certainly wouldn't do it my self.


Pot kettle black ;)
 
<snip>

Bearing in mind you need to be almost on top of them before you can see them I expect there will be an incident sooner or later, and it could well be from a sailing boat alright they only travel at 7 knots but much of the view is servilely restricted and they tend not to keep a constant forward watch as a power boat @ 25 knots.

Good points Pete. There are plenty of sailing boats that don't see us when we are at anchor, fishing. We were anchored in a river 3 or 4 weeks ago, in about 6 feet of water. A 12m sail boat was on a direct collision course for us, so i quickly hauled to anchor and moved the boat. He sailed right over the spot where we had been, didn't even look our way. He then seemed to run aground lol
 
We were anchored in a river 3 or 4 weeks ago, in about 6 feet of water. A 12m sail boat was on a direct collision course for us, so i quickly hauled to anchor and moved the boat. He sailed right over the spot where we had been, didn't even look our way. He then seemed to run aground lol

Are we getting the full story here , are you sure you weren't tied to and obscuring a cardinal marker :D
we've all done it ........

You need a waterproof camera on board ready for OUR amusement :)
You can get them on ebay for under £10 , quickest way to shut a highrate raggie up too, just take his photo.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Underwater-Wa...Cameras_DigitalCameras_JN&hash=item4cf190f779
 
sorry, wasn't aware I was making any comparison...

Fair enough. The story was brought into the thread by the previous post with reference to the capabilities of sea kayaks in general.

I felt it was inappropriate to use such an emotive story to advance the argument that sea kayaks are unseaworthy. Perhaps I misjudged the intention but the comparison was easily inferred.

I think I've made my point. Most people in kayaks at sea take their safety seriously and are well within their capabilities. They have a right to be there regardless of other peoples perceptions of them and their motives.

Some people using kayaks obviously do need to take their visibility to larger craft more seriously, particularly those drifting and fishing on less seaworthy kayaks in busy areas. I share the concerns of DAKA et al with regard to these situations. I don't think a flag or similar would compromise the safety of a stable fishing type kayak.

Motor boat and other fast craft skippers have a responsibility to keep a proper look out and proceed at a safe speed regardless of their personal views of other water users. If there are 'new' hazards or risks then it is your responsibility to take them on board and act accordingly.

I think a greater effort to understand the views and perceptions of other water users can only help towards greater safety at sea. Whether that be trying to understand the navigational requirements and limitations of an oil tanker, motor boat, sailing yacht or kayak.
 
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