JW's Upgrades for 2016 - Anchoring

[Hurricane]

Tee hee Mike! The tape on the boat (as opposed to on the rope) is quite something! You could just line up the tape on the rope with the fairlead or something - this doesn't have to be done to millimetres and then there's the whole topic of yellow tape parallax error!. But whatever works is good! :encouragement:

LOL
Actually, if you look closely, you will see tape on both the deck and the lazy line.
Reason being - if we just had it on the lazy line, we would forget where to line it up
"Now did I line it up with the cleat or did I line or up with the fairlead" - thats what would happen!!
Do both and you don't have to think about it.
Guests can work it out as well.

 

[Portofino]

[/QUOTE]

The connector -is there a right way round to fit it ?
Just wondering !
On my boat the Aprea Mare yard fitted the flush Allen bolted end at the Anchor and the shackle connects it to the new chain

 

[Nick_H]

The connector -is there a right way round to fit it ?
Just wondering !
On my boat the Aprea Mare yard fitted the flush Allen bolted end at the Anchor and the shackle connects it to the new chain

There's only one way to fit it, and Hurricane has it right. If you fit it the other way, it wont work.

 

[Hurricane]

There's only one way to fit it, and Hurricane has it right. If you fit it the other way, it wont work.

Absolutely - the whole idea is that the anchor spins round the moment that the banana hits the roller.
It would be completely pointless if it were the other way round.

See here



You can also see it working in the AnCam clip earlier in this thread.

I do, however, have one major issue with the banana (it is actually called The Twist).
The anchor has a short slot rather than a simple hole for it to attach to.
It is not easy to find a shackle that fits but when you do, it is a little sloppy in the hole.
It is possible (especially after turning round the anchor - over night for example) to get the banana underneath and stuck at right angles to the anchor shaft.
It happened a lot this year.
Eventually, the shackle bent badly and because we were away at sea, my only solution was to fit a couple of extra shackles in parallel to the bent one - looked a mess but I could sleep at night.
When we got home and over the pontoon, I cut the old shackle off and fitted another - and it was evident that the same thing could easily happen - don't know why it hasn't happened before.
So, I've done the same thing - put extra shackles in parallel - the extra shackles take up space and stop the banana from hooking under the anchor shaft.
Looks a real mess but it works.

Mind you, it will probably all change when I fit the Rocna!!

 

[Neeves]

Can you provide a bit more detail on The Twist and the shackles. Anchor shackles should not bend, full stop. If they bend they are either too weak (and you need to upgrade) or the arrangement is so badly wrong you are in danger of breaking something. The next step from a bent shackle is the pin pulling out.

High tensile shackles simply do not bend or not much, they shear (at the pin). Cheap shackles distort badly both in the body and the pin. The pin then pulls out, commonly at the thread. Cheap shackles that bend maybe have a strength 30% of a decent shackle.

I would be attaching a few, like 3, links of chain between the anchor and Twist. This gives more time and space for the anchor to swing after it has been self righted. It also ensures the Twist is always in a straight line and the loads are in tension when the anchor is set. The shackles should be rated shackles, in Europe look for Crosby 209A. In America look for Crosby, same nomenclatue, or Peerless their Peerlift brand or Campbell. The best ones, as the Crosby ones, are designated Grade B (the Grade A shackles, common in Europe, are not so good, being half the strength).

The Twist device you have are very good at self righting the anchor - the swivel component is a waste of time (it does not swivel). If you look at it - when loaded the swivel is at an angle, it will be full of sand and under tension, it will not, does not swivel. We use a simple bent link, Boomerang, made from high tensile steel (so its not too beefy). Swivels, of any design are commonly the weak link in any rode arrangement - if something is prone to failure - its the swivel - do you really need one?

Jonathan

 

[jfm]

Jonathan, mike's Twist is the osculati one. Works well. I like your idea of the three links and I think it would cure mike's problem of the Twist jack knifing. You need plenty of space twixt anchor shank and gypsy to fit the Twist and the three links, but Mike does have that

I'm not as bothered about the swivel as you. Its yield load is huge and the angled tension and sand are not big issues. The swivel is an integral part of the osculati Twist and you can't install the thing without it, unless you modify it. In my experience it does indeed actually swivel

Btw I'm now using an Ultra swivel because my anchor shank is too close to the first roller so I don't have enough space for the osculati

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan, mike's Twist is the osculati one. Works well. I like your idea of the three links and I think it would cure mike's problem of the Twist jack knifing. You need plenty of space twixt anchor shank and gypsy to fit the Twist and the three links, but Mike does have that

I'm not as bothered about the swivel as you. Its yield load is huge and the angled tension and sand are not big issues. The swivel is an integral part of the osculati Twist and you can't install the thing without it, unless you modify it. In my experience it does indeed actually swivel

Btw I'm now using an Ultra swivel because my anchor shank is too close to the first roller so I don't have enough space for the osculati[/QUOTE

I did note there was plenty of room for extra links and I'd tend to go for maximum number as the end links corrode, preferentially, and you can then chop them off and still have plenty of chain left. There are other advantages in moving the swivel away from the anchor - but not relevant to this thread.

I confess i was thrown by it being called a 'Twist' and thought it must be from someone other than Osculati. They are actually made in China and when I spoke to the manufacturer in August last year - they are untested, but they intended putting some testing place - but have not been able to verify if anything has been done. I have never heard of a failure so maybe they are better than run of the mill swivels (which fail more regularly than they should).

If everyone is happy with the swivel (and over on the PBO thread there was a report that it did not swivel) then the real issue is bending of shackles. Good shackles are as cheap as chips - why anyone would use anything else, beats me.

Jonathan

 

[Hurricane]

Actually, there isn't space for any extra links.
I am going to fit a Lewmar chain stopper in that area (just forward of the windlass).
Actually, I'm comfortable with the Osculati Twist
The only problem is the "Jack knifing " and I'm not sure extra links would resolve that issue.
Also extra links would mean that the Twist wouldn't sit on the roller when stowed.
The Osculati Twist's swivel works for me - see that video clip - it had to or the chain would have been twisted between the Osculati Twist and the gipsy.

As I say, the new Rocna anchor will change everything.

 

[Hurricane]

The spanking new Rocna anchor has just arrived on a pallet with another friends Rocna.
Shame they won't be going to Spain until the new year.

 

[Neeves]

Swivels are meant o operate in situ when the anchor is deployed. If the chain has twists in it on retrieval then the swivel has not worked. If the twists fall out when the chain is vertical - that has nothing to do with the swivel, its just the chain untwisting. The cranked link, if correctly attached, will self right the anchor without the need for any swivel- I know, I have one.

Good luck.

Jonathan

 

[Nick_H]

Good luck.

Jonathan

It's an honour to have a former president posting on the forum

 

[Neeves]

It's an honour to have a former president posting on the forum

Its gone right over my head!

 

[petem]

Its gone right over my head!

Former president of Nigeria. Keep up!

 

[Neeves]

Get real! - we have enough problems keeping up with our own heads of state in Australia without worrying about anywhere else.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

Congratulations on the upgrades and thanks for documenting them. I think you will notice an enormous difference.
It sound like you won't be able to enjoy the change for some time, so here are some photos to show you it has all been worthwhile.

This is a typical difference in the way these two anchors set.
Delta:

Rocna:

You will find the upgrade in anchor design and size will also allow you to use anchorages with poorer holding and also get away with shorter scopes when it is necessary to enjoy those tighter anchorages.

This is a Delta struggling at 3:1 in 7m of water. A larger Rocna would manage much better:

 

[Hurricane]

Congratulations on the upgrades and thanks for documenting them. I think you will notice an enormous difference.
It sound like you won't be able to enjoy the change for some time, so here are some photos to show you it has all been worthwhile.

This is a typical difference in the way these two anchors set.
Delta:

Rocna:

You will find the upgrade in anchor design and size will also allow you to use anchorages with poorer holding and also get away with shorter scopes when it is necessary to enjoy those tighter anchorages.

This is a Delta struggling at 3:1 in 7m of water. A larger Rocna would manage much better:

Thanks for those pics

Yep - thats EXACTLY what I saw when snorkeling this year.
That first pic could have been my anchor at any of my anchorages.

And, as you say, I'm hoping to use less scope - maybe get even closer to the yachties.
The problem that I've always had (especially with the old 10mm chain) was that I have had to put so much chain out that my swing would hit other boats.
Less chain means less swing so closer in and less swell etc. - win win win.

 

[MapisM]

I think you will notice an enormous difference.

I sincerely hope that Hurricane will.
Otoh, I'm wondering if I'm the only one who never had a problem with the closest thing to a brick that you can attach to a chain, i.e. Hall anchors (see below)..
Maybe I've just been lucky, but I never got my head round the reason why debates on exotic anchor designs are so popular - other than because someone is building and therefore selling them, that is.
Though I must say that there's one thing I like in the above pics: the yellow paint on the arc of the Rocna anchor, which surely help spotting where the anchor is, while recovering it.
Not sure everybody would like to have that on the pointy bit of a very elegant yacht (as surely JW is), but from a functional viewpoint it definitely makes sense.

 

[MedMilo]

I have a Squadron 65 with pretty much the same set up as you're going to end up with - Rocna 55kg, 100m of 12mm chain, chain stopper aft of bow roller, Kong swivel, Lewmar V4 windlass. ( all SS but I managed to get BUC/Fairline to include this in the sale price!)

I went for the 12mm chain as it's around 70% heavier than the 10mm so, as you say, you can get away with relatively little scope in normal conditions and much better holding in extreme winds. On my last boat (Sq 58) I had a 40kg Delta which worked very well but I have noticed that the Rocna sets in about half the distance when compared with the Delta. I needed to make a couple of small modifications to my bow roller arrangement to accommodate the Rocna however I think this was more to do with the increased size (the oem anchor is, I think, 35kgs) than the design/shape.

As you may know, the guidelines for sizing the windlass are that the 'max pull' of the windlass should be four times the combined weight of the ground tackle. 12mm chain weighs 3.8kgs/m (vs 2.3kg/m for 10mm) so 380 kgs in total + 55kgs for the anchor = total ground tackle weight of 435kgs. The V4 max pull is 1500kgs so my set-up isn't quite at the 4x level but I figure I'm unlikely to ever need to pull up 100m of chain and anchor when it's hanging freely in over 100m of water so am comfortable with my arrangement! I've had no problems raising the ground tackle and have anchored a couple of times in 20m. FYI the V5's max pull is only 1600kgs so nothing in it really and IMHO not worth going through the hassle of changing (unless your existing windlass is knackered anyway).

In Sardinia this year we were anchored in 48 knots of wind and we didn't move an inch! We were in around 5m with 35m of chain out and held perfectly - like you I always attach an anchor snubber to reduce snatching and we felt safe as houses. Mind you the bimini blew off, but that's another story!!

 

[MapisM]

In Sardinia this year we were anchored in 48 knots of wind and we didn't move an inch! We were in around 5m with 35m of chain out and held perfectly

Well, with a 7x scope, that's hardly surprising!
Would you have let down more chain with a Delta (or any other anchor for that matter) and/or a smaller chain?
Fwiw, I'm pretty sure that also my above brick wouldn't move, in similar conditions.

Btw, I assume you weren't around the S coast of Sardinia, or were you?
Down there, we did have some windy days, but I can't remember a single occasion anywhere neat 48kts!

 

[Neeves]

I'm interested - what do you, all, mean as 'snubber'? and how do you attach same, (a) to yachts (b) to chain.