Just because you're paranoid .....

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Dougie_the_Mate

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Just because you\'re paranoid .....

...doesn't mean they are not out to get you.

On Saturday morning we had two near misses within fifteen minutes of each other while on our way to Rothesay. Just off the Royal Gourock Yacht Club we were ghosting along in light airs when a largish ketch appeared heading up river under engine, but with her sails up as well. I kept waiting for her to change course as she came towards us at a fair rate of knots. Eventually when she was about 50 meteres away I hailed her at the top of my voice and a young man who was sunbathing on deck while she was under autohelm jumped to his feet and changed course passing about 20 feet away.

We had just got over this alarm about fifteen minutes later under engine ourselves when one of the Western Ferries left her berth on the Gourock shore. My experience of all the ferries to date has been that they know the collision regulations and have never had any concerns about them before. We were the Starboard vessel and I expected him to pass astern of us while we held our course. Contrary to my expectations he came right towards us and I watched to see what he would do. He maintained his course and it became clear that he was determined to pass across out bows. Accordingly I had to change course to Port to avoid a collision while he blithely went on his way.

This is the first time I have seen such an attitude from any of the Clyde ferries, Calmac or Western, but it gave us a scare especially coming as it did on the previous incident.

Unfortunately I had not the presence of mind to get either vessel's name. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

I agree.

I was out on the Solent over the second May Bank Holiday weekend, with my family. First time my younger son had been on board. Also wife and son number one not very experienced, so I wanted to take it all gently. But, of course being a Bank Holiday weekend in the Solent it was rather busy.

Wind was about 12 knots. To reduce the amount of heel and ensure minimal effort tacking I decided to use just the main. We were sailing (not motor sailing), but she has just had her bottom cleaned and we were touching 7 kts with wind just aft of the beam.

I think one or two other sailing boats assumed we were under engine. In one case, when I was on starboard tack, another cruising boat to my right (on port tack) stuck to its course even though we were clearly on a collision course. This would, of course, have been the right course of action if I was under power. I was not. I allowed us to get quite close (well close enough given my young family were on board) before I eventually turned to starboard to pass 10 yards or so behind her stern. I wasn't flying a motoring cone. Heaven knows what possessed them.

Later that afternoon, in Southampton Water just north of the Hamble River entrance, I was preparing to drop the main. My older son was helming. I told him to steer a little to port, since there was another small sailing boat coming towards us on a near reciprocal course. (I know some may say I should have turned to starboard, but that would initially have made it look like we were turning towards them). Anyway, all was fine until with 50 yards between us they suddenly decided to do an about turn and turned sharply to starboard across our bows, requiring my son to take avoiding action. Again, a bizarre manoeuvre.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

[ QUOTE ]
I agree.
I think one or two other sailing boats assumed we were under engine. In one case, when I was on starboard tack, another cruising boat to my right (on port tack) stuck to its course even though we were clearly on a collision course. This would, of course, have been the right course of action if I was under power. I was not. I allowed us to get quite close (well close enough given my young family were on board) before I eventually turned to starboard to pass 10 yards or so behind her stern. I wasn't flying a motoring cone. Heaven knows what possessed them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good illustration of the utility of the much ridiculed cone. Since so few sailing people can be bothered to use one, or, perhaps, have the experience to understand why it is necessary, the absence of the cone has become meaningless and this kind of potentially dangerous confusion is common.

The purpose of the cone is to indicate when the vessel is being propelled by sails AND machinery. The arguments about motoring into the wind with the mainsail set, riding sails etc. are just red herrings.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

Nothing beats not arguing the point but smartly altering course to keep clear, ColRegs or not. Being right and dead is not preferable to sailing on alive and undamaged having steered clear of some idiot who thinks he's still on the M25 changing lanes in a traffic jam.

I interpret ColRegs one way only, do whatever it takes NOT to hit something else in the vicinity, be it small or large, that keeps my family safe and boat undamaged. Relying on a complicated set of rules, and assuming the other chap is fully conversant with them right up the the awful crunch followed by inrushing water is just plain stupid. Out on the roads we take avoiding action with boy racers, why not afloat. None of us take trawlers/tankers/ferries/bulk carriers out for day sails, we all use "small" boats. We are seldom constrained by narrow channels and deep drafts in the way big ships are and it makes sense for proper implementation of ColRegs with them, but for pleasure craft who are not necessarily going anywhere apart from just "swanning" around it's common sense to manouver to avoid each other. Who gives a sh$t who is right and should give way, just get out of the way. Life is too short to worry about the ar$oles on the water, I just assume everyone else is out to ram me and keep clear of them.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

Col Reg #1

Never mess with or suppose what Festering Wherries are going to do.

Donald /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

[ QUOTE ]


I interpret ColRegs one way only, do whatever it takes NOT to hit something else in the vicinity, be it small or large, that keeps my family safe and boat undamaged. Relying on a complicated set of rules, and assuming the other chap is fully conversant with them right up the the awful crunch followed by inrushing water is just plain stupid. Out on the roads we take avoiding action with boy racers, why not afloat.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is all very well as long as you are taking action before a potential "collision situation" develops. The regulations only apply when it does. At that point, you can either have the chaos that would arise both on the water and on the roads if no-one had any means of predicting what anyone else would do, or you can apply some simple rules, whilst remaining alert for those who don't know them or pay them any attention. The fact that there are some boy racers on the roads doesn't negate the need for some basic rules. If you don't know them you shouldn't be driving. Same on the water.

The rules are not complicated. They are few and simple and in my experience most people know and follow them. They also cover the boy racers and what to do about them. Avoid collision situations by all means, but if you get into one, then the approach you describe here is potentially far more dangerous than the simple expedient of following the rules and staying vigilant. Otherwise you are just contributing to the general dumbing down of basic seamanship of which you seem to be complaining.

Of course, if you did have a collision that resulted in significant damage or someone getting hurt, you might find the question of whether or not you obeyed the rules turns out to be of some interest to your insurers and, perhaps, to a judge, even if not to you.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

Agreed. Follow the Col Regs as they are written. In summary - stand on or give way as required but be ready to take avoiding action when it becomes apparent that the other guy is not doing the right thing.

Just simply keeping out of everyone's way can cause as many problems as it solves.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

Whilst you are correct, what was that little poem about a chap who had right of way and went to the bottom?

Most of the small craft out on the water have only a hazy idea of correct procedure, and how many mobo owners understand ColRegs in relation to sail boats, what tack, where's the wind etc?

ColRegs are not about who's right but primarily about avoidance of collisions. An almost parallel thread here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2319548/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1/nt/3
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

[ QUOTE ]
Whilst you are correct, what was that little poem about a chap who had right of way and went to the bottom?


[/ QUOTE ]

The chap in the poem went to the bottom because he didn't obey the colregs - which lay upon us all the duty to take avoiding action if the give way vessel does not appear to be taking the necessary action itself.

No, the colregs are not about who is right. They are about predictability. This depends on us observing them and not applying our own personal interpretations, which the other parties involved cannot possibly guess.

Your experience and mine are different. Where I sail, the vast majority of people know and observe the regulations. If you think you can abandon them because others seem to have done so, then you are part of the problem.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

I tend towards Cliveshep's view - with one priviso. That any action you take be bold and obvious to other vessel.

Aural Exam - Southampton for MN Officer.

Mr. Luther - you sight a tug and tow crossing on your port bow, he is displaying towing lights but no other signals. You are in clear open waters. What do you do ?

I answered I would take compass bearings to ascertain if risk of collision exists.
I would monitor to see if he alters course or speed. He is not showing Restricted ability to manoeuvre or special ops signals and therefore is as a power driven vessel.
But in act of good seamanship - I would make bold and obvious alteration to allow him to carry on his passage. Sounding appropriate sound signal.

Why would you do that Mr. Luther ?

I would do it because even though not showing restricted manoeuvre signals - he is a tug and tow and would be harder for him to act than my vessel. I would allow him safe passage and continue on course.

Thank you Mr. Luther - even though your action is not strictly within IRPCS, it is good seamanship and accepted ... next question ...


That was the Lead Examiners assessment of my answer. And illustrates that IRPCS, (Colregs) are not cast in stone. The main point is BOLD AND OBVIOUS ... and that applies to following IRPCS as well as my acting outside of them. The other vessel should have no doubt from visually noting your action as to your intention.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

[ QUOTE ]
And illustrates that IRPCS, (Colregs) are not cast in stone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they are not "cast in stone". I very much doubt if any sensible person would stand on in the situation you describe simply on the grounds that the "restricted ability" or any other signal was absent or not visible.

But there is a huge difference between using good judgment to apply the rules appropriately (which is what you were doing) and abandoning them.

The rule about taking early and obvious action is one of the most important in the book and one of the most frequently ignored - thereby forcing the give way skipper's judgment on the stand on skipper when decisions have to be taken.

There are many basic rules and conventions of good seamanship that have stood the test of time. They can't cover every possible situation, but that does not invalidate them. It is a great pity that they are being eroded by ignorance, arrogance and misunderstanding. The endless complaints on these forums about the behaviour of other users of the water bear constant witness to that.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

Mobo owners do not need to know about sailing colregs because regardless of tack is a mobo meets a raggie they should keep away. If the raggie is motoring then it is a mobo and mobo rules apply.

And I think you will find that most experienced mobo owners do indeed know about sailing boats. There are not separate colregs for raggies and mobos. They both have to comply with the colregs. Simple.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

[ QUOTE ]
Mobo owners do not need to know about sailing colregs because regardless of tack is a mobo meets a raggie they should keep away

[/ QUOTE ] ...and if the raggie is overtaking the mobo?

Plonker.
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

Quote: "No, the colregs are not about who is right. They are about predictability."

Yup, they are, and if you can see anything remotely predictable about a crowd of dinghy sailers in a bay or river estuary well mixed in with rubber dinghys flying about in all directions, the odd runabout, one or two drifting mobos with crew knocking em back on the fly-bridge in the sunshine, and the odd purposeful passage-maker you've got a brain like a Pentium II and perhaps we can all borrow it. ColRegs are good one-on-one or two, for the rest common sense avoidance in good time makes sound sense, why get into situations "because the other chap is bound to do this predictable manouver because it's in the ColRegs and so I'll do this" does not take into account the fact that he might well have other things on his mind, a race, the tottie half-naked beside him, avoidance of some other silly bugger or just plain bloody-mindedness as the post that started all this.

You'll have to work hard to bump into me cos' I'll be watching you like a hawk and move early on to make it very hard for you to do so even if you are reading your ColRegs. In 42 years on trawlers, Pilot boats, and pleasure craft I've seen what mortal man can do with a boat and I've never yet got even close to a bang thank God 'cos I always look ahead and keep clear so a situation can't develop. Cheers!
 
Re: Just because you\'re paranoid .....

You do seem to rely on straw men of your own devising to make your points, rather than what I have actually written. Perhaps you really don't understand the point, which is not about making assumptions about what the other boat, or boats, will do, but making your OWN actions as predictable as possible to others.

If you really are unable to understand the "complicated" regulations or apply them sensibly in situations involving more than one other boat after all that experience, then I'm afraid there's nothing more to say, except that they have served me pretty well in my 50 years or so of sailing (some professionally and some for pleasure, some racing, some cruising and many crowded waters) despite the growing number of people like yourself who seem to have abandoned them.
 
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