Jordan Series Drogue, some practical questions

[Poignard]

Only just joined this thread and being at work I've not had the opportunity to read all the postings.
How do you store and deploy a JSD?
Seems to me if done badly there is ample opportunity for it to get very tangled especially if being in a hostile environment.
Would you have it on a drum on the deck and in really bad conditions how do you successfully get it all attached?
Are there any photos/videos to show this?
Thanks
S.



http://sailingscotty.wordpress.com/

The man who built the Twister called 'Bits' had done a lot of sailing in heavy weather in her. He had a Jordan type of drogue (I can't remember if it was genuine or if he had made it).

Anyway, he gave a talk to the Twister Class Association in the late 90s and decribed its use, and showed a video of one like it in use. As far as I recall he kept it in a travel bag. It may have been written up in the TCA magazine but I can't remember.

'Bits' is now owned by somebody else but maybe the current owners acquired the drogue with her and, if so, could give you more information.

 

[Fascadale]

And while I acquire the bits and pieces for the drogue device, the 'heavy lifting' is in beefong-up the stern cleats to cope. What's there, bluntly, is unfit for marina service. I accept wholly VO5's recommendation for massively-overbuilt cleating facilities in this area.

I suspect that my stern cleats are also not up to JSD loads. I also don't want to have the bridle led to the main winches and beyond: too complicated to set up in conditions I expect to be far from benign and too many opportunities for chaffing.

I plan to through bolt a couple of SS straps to the outside of the hull as suggested on the Jordan website. The bridle would be shackled to those. At the moment I'm thinking that the bridle will be shackled on at the start of the voyage; I don't fancy hanging over the stern trying to do up a shackle in a big sea.

If the drogue ever had to be deployed it would then be a case of shackling a hard eye at the boat end of the leader to hard eyes on the drogue ends of the bridles. This could be done in the cockpit (I hope)

Interesting discussion! As a JCer with a fair bit of bluewater experience, gales, storms and a hurricane, I have used my JSD and found it excellent. I carefully weighed up all the various devices, Seabrake included and decided that the JSD was the one for me. I have deployed it once so far, very successfully. My Rustler will go to windward in wind speeds of up to 45 knots, depending on sea state. I usually heave to with triple reefed main once it gets to 40 knots when she forereaches at 50 degrees to the apparent wind at 1.5 knots - anything faster is uncomfortable and hard on the boat and its gear. At 50 knots it's time to run off before the wind and chuck out a drogue.

Returning from the Azores this summer in a good gale, I decided to hand the storm jib and deploy the drogue when the boat speed reached 13.86 knots. Everything was under control, but it just felt too fast. Windspeed was over 50 knots, but I cannot be sure by how much because the anemometer blew away. The JSD is very straightforward to deploy, I feed the bridle through fairleads on each quarter, take three turns round the primary winches and the lead the lines forward via the genoa cars to a strong point on the foredeck. Chafe protection is paramount and it is worth spending some time thinking this through. I have 10 ft of 10mm chain at the end of the drogue and this works fine and is easier to stow than an anchor or other weight. I forget how many cones, but it's a standard JSD set up as per the inventor's instructions. The chain is connected with a hard eye and moused shackle. The three parts of the drouge are connected with soft eyes and cow hitches. There is no chafe at these connections and no need for hard eyes. Nylon braidline is essential to protect from shock loadings - the load on the bridle at the boat is enormous. Recovery is straightforward, just winch it in! The mini drogues collapse once out of the water and wrap round the winch barrel quite easily. The more you winch in, the easier it gets, no need to heave to. Once deployed, it held the boat's stern directly into the wind and the 'stretchiness' of the design (see JSD website) allows for a little forward motion as a wave comes up behind, thus reducing the impact. Yes, they were big seas, and the force of the water hitting the washboards meant that water squirted through and hit the main bulkhead, so it was a bit damp below. You need to have strong washboards! I was making about 2 knots with the drogue out.

I don't understand VO5's comments about his experience about the multihull and suspect that it may have been the wrong size or incorrectly deployed. However I thought it might be useful to have a bit of feedback from a happy user ( I wasn't happy at the time, I was cold, wet, and apprehensive about whether it was going to get worse, but the boat felt quite safe). I do not want to get into a discussion about the merits of this, that or any other drogue - do your homework and go with what you feel comfortable with and don't forget, there's no perfect device! The sea will always have the last word and if you can't cope with that, sell the boat and buy a good pair of walking shoes.

Thanks for a great account of a JSD in use

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Interesting discussion! As a JCer with a fair bit of bluewater experience, gales, storms and a hurricane, I have used my JSD and found it excellent. I carefully weighed up all the various devices, Seabrake included and decided that the JSD was the one for me. I have deployed it once so far,

Reading your account I can picture the situation and environment and I can imagine you reliving it each time you discuss or write the account.

Where do you stow the JSD until required? Is it in a bag, a tub etc in a locker and how is it coiled or laid?
When you have to get it ready, is there a risk of the bridle, chain and drogue getting tangled and when it's deployed there must be problems heaving it over when there is a wind vane etc out the back?
I've seen a video where all is calm and the drogue is deployed off the back of a powereboat by several people, but far from the conditions a Jester sailor may find when trying to deploy in earnest.
thanks
S.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Hi Jesters,

Due to various pieces of enlightening text, I've recently been converted to Drogueism. The problem, for me at least, is the expense of buying the series of drogues, so I wondered what your combined wisdom thinks of the following...

Since Mr Taylor has already worked out that I need 80 drogues.... (thank you Roger), and I can't afford to buy the ready made ones, I wonder if in a cost/time saving exercise I could perhaps fabricate just 20, but of a larger size (for some reason 4 times the size feels too big)? Obviously the great Don Jordan designed it as it is for a well researched set of reasons, but he apparently didn't take in to account very small boats, or poor people, and so while this will be compromising on the performance of the Jordan Series Drogue, I presume the Whitworth Bodge Drogue will still have benefits over a single large drogue?

Does this seem reasonable, or should I just bite the bullet and beg for the use of my Aunts sewing machine and just get on with fabricating 80 of the things?

I came across this plea from a VSB sailor in another place and, as I have little success with the Yahoo setup, promised to post this here - and my 'tuppence-worth' photopics ( for I CAN manage that here ).

Now, I really don't know if there's an effective ( partial ) solution in what I'm suggesting, but surely that's what this place is - in part - for, IMO....

I've hesitated to wreck my wife's good sewing machine, and have mulled over what might be an effective substitute for fabric cones.

The answer may be plastic cones as used in the spinning, weaving and thread manufacturing industry, which discards thousands of them. I've acquired, free, more than 100 of them and am now musing how I may attach them easily/swiftly to a warp.

Yes, the question of storage space on a small boat arises.... but that should respond to 'throwing thinking at the problem instead of £20 notes'.

I'll try to attach a pic or two, but - as I don't get on well with the Yahoo way of doing things - I'll also try to fit 'em onto the PBO 'reader to reader' forum.

 

[webcraft]

.
The droguelets only cost me £1 each including postage, which I thought was pretty reasonable.

- W

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Those plastic cone 'drogues' would take up a fair bit if stowage space ???

 

[Aeolus]

Given that you must attach the cones to a line with some stretch in it (e.g. nylon), I don't know how you could avoid chafe at the connections between the leading edges of the cones and the line.

However, in theory, each cone is subjected to relatively little drag - it's the combination of the large number of cones that slows the boat, so maybe the small amount of drag would not induce too much chafe.

 

[ianabc]

Given that you must attach the cones to a line with some stretch in it (e.g. nylon), I don't know how you could avoid chafe at the connections between the leading edges of the cones and the line.

Chafe...

have seen photos on the internet of a drogue deployed in severe storm of South Island, New Zealand

Severe damage to 3/4 inch dia lines

seems to have been caused by misunderstanding of Jordan's instructions

as metal thimbles and shackles were not shown on his design

EXCEPT

for attaching bridle lines to boat

and attaching bitter end weight

th

 

[ianabc]

Given that you must attach the cones to a line with some stretch in it (e.g. nylon), I don't know how you could avoid chafe at the connections between the leading edges of the cones and the line.

Chafe...

have seen photos on the internet of a drogue deployed in severe storm of South Island, New Zealand

Damage to 3/4 inch dia lines

seems to have been caused by misunderstanding of Jordan's instructions

as metal thimbles and shackles were not shown on his design

EXCEPT

for attaching bridle lines to boat

and attaching bitter end weight

 

[Chalker]

I knew that were four lines to this! I could only ever remember two of them and one if those was a mix of your number 1 and 3.
Thanks.

"He who knows, and knows he knows, he is a wise man - seek him.
He who knows, and knows not he knows, he is asleep - wake him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is a child -teach him.
He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him...

 

[Chalker]

"The anomaly is that it is the owners of the smallest vessels, of 27 feet or so, are the most avidly entrenched in their beliefs."

Except for those with bigger boats who are even more entrenched in their beliefs! If the cap fits.....

 

[VO5]

"The anomaly is that it is the owners of the smallest vessels, of 27 feet or so, are the most avidly entrenched in their beliefs."

Except for those with bigger boats who are even more entrenched in their beliefs! If the cap fits.....

Yes, ha ha, until the owners of the smallest vessels encounter a freak wave coming out of nowhere and then their entrenched beliefs are suddenly replaced by other emotions, funny, whereas the owners of bigger boats, in the same circumstances, remain unfazed, is the difference.