Aeolus
Well-Known Member
Ignore feature!
What a marvellous feature - thanks, Conachair for pointing it out.
What a marvellous feature - thanks, Conachair for pointing it out.
Jordan Series Drogue, some practical questions
- Thread starter Fascadale
- Start date
Blue5
Well-Known Member
How do you activate it?
Aeolus
Well-Known Member
Click on User CP at the top of this page, then Edit Ignore List on the left side of the User Control Panel page
Conachair
Guest
Click on "user CP" then about half way down on the right side is "edit ignore list", click that then put VO5 into the box and click OK.
Life gets better after
Blue5
Well-Known Member
Thanks, had never noticed it before
boatropes
Well-Known Member
Thanks, it works! And yes life does get better, like the silence after swatting the mosquito. Now where were we? Oh yes, JSD drogues, and some practical details.Click on "user CP" then about half way down on the right side is "edit ignore list", click that then put VO5 into the box and click OK.
Life gets better after
Spuddy
Well-Known Member
Read mention of the Ignore Button and though it was just a humourous quip. Just a very short list of one so far.
Conachair
Guest
anyone tried this bunch? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SERIES-DROGUE...UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing&hash=item588717d1e0
I emailed them last year about how quick they could deliver but got no reply.
I emailed them last year about how quick they could deliver but got no reply.
Talbot
Well-Known Member
The material in the picture looks like very thin stuff. If you look at the sailcloth provided by Sailrite, it looks to be twice the weight. IMHO, this is not a great area for cost reduction.
boatropes
Well-Known Member
drogue cones in ripstop nylon
I source those same yellow ones for fitting to my customers drogue rigs made up with doublebraid nylon 1/2" and 5/8". Yes the cone material is light but it is ripstop nylon which has enough strength as long as the cones are stitched well in manufacture.
Lady Campanula
N/A
I'm deeply interested in the capacity to 'put on the handbrake' when faced with an ocean storm. Over the years I've studied the experience of others via Adlard Coles' 'Heavy Weather Sailing' ( several editions ) and, for catamarans, I've been persuaded that a robust parachute sea anchor was the thing.
So I made one, considerably stronger than what was locally/SIBS available.
For example, I use a 29' military 'heavy load drop chute'. I reinforced each and every panel seam with 1500lb webbing, looped right across the apex. A panel might possibly blow, but the structure would remain intact. My calculations are that the total static weight of the boat could be supported by just one fabric panel.
The rode is 800 feet of 18mm braid, doubled. There is a lifting shackle between the 'chute and the rode, sufficiently heavy to ensure the required sinking, and truly hefty bridle arrangements. All as suggested in the 'Drag Device Database'.
Now, as I no longer have a catamaran to look after, but a traditional heavy-displacement monomaran, I'm putting together a Jordan-type structure.
And while I acquire the bits and pieces for the drogue device, the 'heavy lifting' is in beefong-up the stern cleats to cope. What's there, bluntly, is unfit for marina service. I accept wholly VO5's recommendation for massively-overbuilt cleating facilities in this area.
Further, and much more important than my plans and notions, is concern about the 'poo-poo'ing' of the deep and relevant experience of some very experienced contributors to this. There are several of them, each of whom has been there and done that. It ill behoves those of us who haven't to denigrate any one of them, for we are - in this - just noise in the background.
Where there is controversy, let me recommend we acknowledge its presence and that saving a small boat from a storm is not an exact science.
I've had reason to read through a post #3 - 'Ushuaia to Rescue' linked here, and to consider in slow time what lessons I might learn from what was done and what was 'blogged'. That told me rather more than all on this thread.
Even RKJ was dismasted in the Atlantic, had to fight for survival, and none of us know enough to be entirely catagorical about handling any such situation.
So I made one, considerably stronger than what was locally/SIBS available.
For example, I use a 29' military 'heavy load drop chute'. I reinforced each and every panel seam with 1500lb webbing, looped right across the apex. A panel might possibly blow, but the structure would remain intact. My calculations are that the total static weight of the boat could be supported by just one fabric panel.
The rode is 800 feet of 18mm braid, doubled. There is a lifting shackle between the 'chute and the rode, sufficiently heavy to ensure the required sinking, and truly hefty bridle arrangements. All as suggested in the 'Drag Device Database'.
Now, as I no longer have a catamaran to look after, but a traditional heavy-displacement monomaran, I'm putting together a Jordan-type structure.
And while I acquire the bits and pieces for the drogue device, the 'heavy lifting' is in beefong-up the stern cleats to cope. What's there, bluntly, is unfit for marina service. I accept wholly VO5's recommendation for massively-overbuilt cleating facilities in this area.
Further, and much more important than my plans and notions, is concern about the 'poo-poo'ing' of the deep and relevant experience of some very experienced contributors to this. There are several of them, each of whom has been there and done that. It ill behoves those of us who haven't to denigrate any one of them, for we are - in this - just noise in the background.
Where there is controversy, let me recommend we acknowledge its presence and that saving a small boat from a storm is not an exact science.
I've had reason to read through a post #3 - 'Ushuaia to Rescue' linked here, and to consider in slow time what lessons I might learn from what was done and what was 'blogged'. That told me rather more than all on this thread.
Even RKJ was dismasted in the Atlantic, had to fight for survival, and none of us know enough to be entirely catagorical about handling any such situation.
boatropes
Well-Known Member
............ my concern about the 'poo-poo'ing' of the deep and relevant experience of some very experienced contributors to this.
I've had reason to read through a post #3 - 'Ushuaia to Rescue' linked here, ....... That told me rather more than all on this thread. ........
Agreed there are better sources for considering which type of rig might suit any individual's sailing, and thanks for that one, your details are useful too. Please however remember that this thread was started for the purpose of its title "Jordan series drogue, some practical questions" In other words the details of such a rig and how they can be made/procured. A few members did switch off viewing of posts by a certain member because he added pages and pages condemning the Jordan rig and maligning its devotees without any coherent reasoning. Not poo-pooing his experience, just tired of the rambling and the very patronizing tone. Too late though I fear because the thread has gone quiet, having been largely distracted from its original purpose and usefulness from Page 5 onwards. I'm disappointed that a moderator didn't heed requests and split this into two threads.
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VO5
Well-Known Member
I'm deeply interested in the capacity to 'put on the handbrake' when faced with an ocean storm. Over the years I've studied the experience of others via Adlard Coles' 'Heavy Weather Sailing' ( several editions ) and, for catamarans, I've been persuaded that a robust parachute sea anchor was the thing.
So I made one, considerably stronger than what was locally/SIBS available.
For example, I use a 29' military 'heavy load drop chute'. I reinforced each and every panel seam with 1500lb webbing, looped right across the apex. A panel might possibly blow, but the structure would remain intact. My calculations are that the total static weight of the boat could be supported by just one fabric panel.
The rode is 800 feet of 18mm braid, doubled. There is a lifting shackle between the 'chute and the rode, sufficiently heavy to ensure the required sinking, and truly hefty bridle arrangements. All as suggested in the 'Drag Device Database'.
Now, as I no longer have a catamaran to look after, but a traditional heavy-displacement monomaran, I'm putting together a Jordan-type structure.
And while I acquire the bits and pieces for the drogue device, the 'heavy lifting' is in beefong-up the stern cleats to cope. What's there, bluntly, is unfit for marina service. I accept wholly VO5's recommendation for massively-overbuilt cleating facilities in this area.
Further, and much more important than my plans and notions, is concern about the 'poo-poo'ing' of the deep and relevant experience of some very experienced contributors to this. There are several of them, each of whom has been there and done that. It ill behoves those of us who haven't to denigrate any one of them, for we are - in this - just noise in the background.
Where there is controversy, let me recommend we acknowledge its presence and that saving a small boat from a storm is not an exact science.
I've had reason to read through a post #3 - 'Ushuaia to Rescue' linked here, and to consider in slow time what lessons I might learn from what was done and what was 'blogged'. That told me rather more than all on this thread.
Even RKJ was dismasted in the Atlantic, had to fight for survival, and none of us know enough to be entirely catagorical about handling any such situation.
My posture is quite simple and therefore transparent.
I have experienced some real howlers, but not in the Southern Ocean.
A real howler in the Southern Ocean must be awesome. This is because it is a stretch of ocean with only two bottlenecks, being Cape Horn and THe Bass Strait.
The gear I use was tested in the Bass Strait and has been adopted by the Australian Navy and the Australian Coastguard and the reason is that closed drogues do not work as efficiently as drogues that adjust to the pull exerted on them.
I have learnt in life that one does not need to reinvent the wheel, but one should take advantage if a new and more efficient wheel than the one we are familiar with is invented and shown to be better.
Why some people persist in clinging to ideas that prevent them from progressing in their thinking is a riddle that constantly serves to perplex me deeply.
About the strength of cleats we have to realise that the force exerted is that of the boat pulling the drogue along and not of the drogue pulling the boat.
'Attsitt !
VO5
Well-Known Member
Boatropes, the Jordan Series Drogue is now old hat.
There is a more efficient solution.
Also the more efficient solution is not a pig to recover unlike the Jordan, even when the vessel is underway and making way in the water.
But if there are people willing to obstinately persist with obsolete ideas, so be it.
boatropes
Well-Known Member
Thread hijacked, again and again...
When I used the word 'patronizing' a few minutes ago, here he goes again, I rest my case. Could someone please ask VO5 to stay off this thread, as its title says it is to discuss the details of the Jordan drogue rig by those who have already researched it and have decided it is for them. Moderator assistance please........ why some people persist in clinging to ideas that prevent them from progressing in their thinking is a riddle that constantly serves to perplex me deeply. ..........
'Attsitt !
VO5
Well-Known Member
The recovery of a drogue is a legitimate practical question relative to the subject, moderator or not.
You ought to read the account of the chap who sailed to Baffin Bay and had to recover the Jordan Series Drogue. It took hin HOURS and he ended up with both his hands BLEEDING.
I have no more to say on the subject. That's it.
You ought to read the account of the chap who sailed to Baffin Bay and had to recover the Jordan Series Drogue. It took hin HOURS and he ended up with both his hands BLEEDING.
I have no more to say on the subject. That's it.
barnaclephill
Well-Known Member
About time, thank God
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
This whole issue of recovery..... for me, i'd recover enough to get it to the bow and then use the capstan on the windlass... it might be slow, and need a few breaks to keep the batteries alive, but it would be IMHO the easiest way.
jesterchallenger
Well-Known Member
Jordan Series Drogue
Interesting discussion! As a JCer with a fair bit of bluewater experience, gales, storms and a hurricane, I have used my JSD and found it excellent. I carefully weighed up all the various devices, Seabrake included and decided that the JSD was the one for me. I have deployed it once so far, very successfully. My Rustler will go to windward in wind speeds of up to 45 knots, depending on sea state. I usually heave to with triple reefed main once it gets to 40 knots when she forereaches at 50 degrees to the apparent wind at 1.5 knots - anything faster is uncomfortable and hard on the boat and its gear. At 50 knots it's time to run off before the wind and chuck out a drogue.
Returning from the Azores this summer in a good gale, I decided to hand the storm jib and deploy the drogue when the boat speed reached 13.86 knots. Everything was under control, but it just felt too fast. Windspeed was over 50 knots, but I cannot be sure by how much because the anemometer blew away. The JSD is very straightforward to deploy, I feed the bridle through fairleads on each quarter, take three turns round the primary winches and the lead the lines forward via the genoa cars to a strong point on the foredeck. Chafe protection is paramount and it is worth spending some time thinking this through. I have 10 ft of 10mm chain at the end of the drogue and this works fine and is easier to stow than an anchor or other weight. I forget how many cones, but it's a standard JSD set up as per the inventor's instructions. The chain is connected with a hard eye and moused shackle. The three parts of the drouge are connected with soft eyes and cow hitches. There is no chafe at these connections and no need for hard eyes. Nylon braidline is essential to protect from shock loadings - the load on the bridle at the boat is enormous. Recovery is straightforward, just winch it in! The mini drogues collapse once out of the water and wrap round the winch barrel quite easily. The more you winch in, the easier it gets, no need to heave to. Once deployed, it held the boat's stern directly into the wind and the 'stretchiness' of the design (see JSD website) allows for a little forward motion as a wave comes up behind, thus reducing the impact. Yes, they were big seas, and the force of the water hitting the washboards meant that water squirted through and hit the main bulkhead, so it was a bit damp below. You need to have strong washboards! I was making about 2 knots with the drogue out.
I don't understand VO5's comments about his experience about the multihull and suspect that it may have been the wrong size or incorrectly deployed. However I thought it might be useful to have a bit of feedback from a happy user ( I wasn't happy at the time, I was cold, wet, and apprehensive about whether it was going to get worse, but the boat felt quite safe). I do not want to get into a discussion about the merits of this, that or any other drogue - do your homework and go with what you feel comfortable with and don't forget, there's no perfect device! The sea will always have the last word and if you can't cope with that, sell the boat and buy a good pair of walking shoes.
Interesting discussion! As a JCer with a fair bit of bluewater experience, gales, storms and a hurricane, I have used my JSD and found it excellent. I carefully weighed up all the various devices, Seabrake included and decided that the JSD was the one for me. I have deployed it once so far, very successfully. My Rustler will go to windward in wind speeds of up to 45 knots, depending on sea state. I usually heave to with triple reefed main once it gets to 40 knots when she forereaches at 50 degrees to the apparent wind at 1.5 knots - anything faster is uncomfortable and hard on the boat and its gear. At 50 knots it's time to run off before the wind and chuck out a drogue.
Returning from the Azores this summer in a good gale, I decided to hand the storm jib and deploy the drogue when the boat speed reached 13.86 knots. Everything was under control, but it just felt too fast. Windspeed was over 50 knots, but I cannot be sure by how much because the anemometer blew away. The JSD is very straightforward to deploy, I feed the bridle through fairleads on each quarter, take three turns round the primary winches and the lead the lines forward via the genoa cars to a strong point on the foredeck. Chafe protection is paramount and it is worth spending some time thinking this through. I have 10 ft of 10mm chain at the end of the drogue and this works fine and is easier to stow than an anchor or other weight. I forget how many cones, but it's a standard JSD set up as per the inventor's instructions. The chain is connected with a hard eye and moused shackle. The three parts of the drouge are connected with soft eyes and cow hitches. There is no chafe at these connections and no need for hard eyes. Nylon braidline is essential to protect from shock loadings - the load on the bridle at the boat is enormous. Recovery is straightforward, just winch it in! The mini drogues collapse once out of the water and wrap round the winch barrel quite easily. The more you winch in, the easier it gets, no need to heave to. Once deployed, it held the boat's stern directly into the wind and the 'stretchiness' of the design (see JSD website) allows for a little forward motion as a wave comes up behind, thus reducing the impact. Yes, they were big seas, and the force of the water hitting the washboards meant that water squirted through and hit the main bulkhead, so it was a bit damp below. You need to have strong washboards! I was making about 2 knots with the drogue out.
I don't understand VO5's comments about his experience about the multihull and suspect that it may have been the wrong size or incorrectly deployed. However I thought it might be useful to have a bit of feedback from a happy user ( I wasn't happy at the time, I was cold, wet, and apprehensive about whether it was going to get worse, but the boat felt quite safe). I do not want to get into a discussion about the merits of this, that or any other drogue - do your homework and go with what you feel comfortable with and don't forget, there's no perfect device! The sea will always have the last word and if you can't cope with that, sell the boat and buy a good pair of walking shoes.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
Only just joined this thread and being at work I've not had the opportunity to read all the postings. I'll try and do so when at home asap so apologies if I'm asking something that has already been answered.
I've read some of the very good advice and accounts given above but how do you store and deploy a JSD?
Seems to me if done badly there is ample opportunity for it to get very tangled especially if being in a hostile environment.
Would you have it on a drum on the deck and in really bad conditions how do you successfully get it all attached if you'r already being thrown around and you are likely to be harnessed and safety lined to restrict your movements?
Are there any photos/videos to show this?
Thanks
S.
http://sailingscotty.wordpress.com/
I've read some of the very good advice and accounts given above but how do you store and deploy a JSD?
Seems to me if done badly there is ample opportunity for it to get very tangled especially if being in a hostile environment.
Would you have it on a drum on the deck and in really bad conditions how do you successfully get it all attached if you'r already being thrown around and you are likely to be harnessed and safety lined to restrict your movements?
Are there any photos/videos to show this?
Thanks
S.
http://sailingscotty.wordpress.com/
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