Jordan Series Drogue, some practical questions

[VO5]

If I was as long-winded as you I could bore everyone to death explaining in enormous detail why the JSD is a much better device than the Seabrake in extreme conditions, but I won't bore everyone rigid with 'facts' that are irrelevant to the original subject of the thread.

Fascadale has indicated that he was looking for advice on building a JSD, which some of us have tried to give him. Unfortunately it has been drowned out by your deluge of irrelevant (to this thread) verbiage.

So - give us a 'brake' and take a telling. Go and start your own thread.

- W

You don't get my drift at all.

I tried to give you a hint earlier on, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

I am trying to be helpful by gently suggesting that the ideas that you have and the tedious effort you commit yourself to in building this contraption are unnecessary and may prove to be unsatisfactory for the following reasons :~

First of all there is a vast difference between fanciful theory and practical application in that not everything created turns out to be perfect because a government agency approves it. There may be better solutions that the government department is not made aware of. Therefore the pronouncement that the government department makes cannot be relied upon implicitly since that pronouncement is made on information that is incomplete. Therefore the pronouncement through not having complete information may actually turn out at best unsatisfactory and at worst inconvenient and even potentially dangerous.

The finished contraption has been acknowledged here to be heavy and bulky.

Heavy kit is not fun to handle in a crisis and bulky kit is not fun to store in a marine environment in which space is at a premium, that is, without considering ease of immediate accessibility.

Then you must concede that the contraption may be easy to deploy if prepared properly to run but a job and a half to retrieve, the disadvantage being the difficulty of winching in with all the cones in the way.

You may argue in favour of heaving to in order to retrieve, but I reason you want a method of being able to retieve with the option of being underway and making way through the water with minimum difficulty.

Then again after all the toil and time involved in constructing the contraption it does not fulfil (and I have PRACTICAL experience of it) the two criteria of maintaining wholly reliable directional stability and keeping the vessel's stern down, thouigh I will concede it will slow down a vessel but there again a tyre on a rope will do this.

But even a tyre on a rope towed will give better directional stability of sorts against the idea of a chain of evenly spaced mini buckets as the tow line would be stretched in a manner that the final pressure would be at the end of it and not fractionally distributed throughout.

So what I am posting is not verbiage.

What I am trying to do for you is to prevent you from doing a lot of unnecessary work to achieve results that can be bettered, with less effort , greater comfort, and greater certainty of use, I respectfully submit to you.

There are many voluminous tomes written about this subject. What really counts is practical experience which I have and quite obviously you haven't, therefore I am trying to pass on to you the benefit of my experience, that you should be properly informed, to your benefit, and my satisfaction.

 

[webcraft]

You don't get my drift at all.

I tried to give you a hint earlier on, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

I am trying to be helpful by gently suggesting that the ideas that you have and the tedious effort you commit yourself to in building this contraption are unnecessary and may prove to be unsatisfactory for the following reasons :~

First of all there is a vast difference between fanciful theory and practical application in that not everything created turns out to be perfect because a government agency approves it. There may be better solutions that the government department is not made aware of. Therefore the pronouncement that the government department makes cannot be relied upon implicitly since that pronouncement is made on information that is incomplete. Therefore the pronouncement through not having complete information may actually turn out at best unsatisfactory and at worst inconvenient and even potentially dangerous.

The finished contraption has been acknowledged here to be heavy and bulky.

Heavy kit is not fun to handle in a crisis and bulky kit is not fun to store in a marine environment in which space is at a premium, that is, without considering ease of immediate accessibility.

Then you must concede that the contraption may be easy to deploy if prepared properly to run but a job and a half to retrieve, the disadvantage being the difficulty of winching in with all the cones in the way.

You may argue in favour of heaving to in order to retrieve, but I reason you want a method of being able to retieve with the option of being underway and making way through the water with minimum difficulty.

Then again after all the toil and time involved in constructing the contraption it does not fulfil (and I have PRACTICAL experience of it) the two criteria of maintaining wholly reliable directional stability and keeping the vessel's stern down, thouigh I will concede it will slow down a vessel but there again a tyre on a rope will do this.

But even a tyre on a rope towed will give better directional stability of sorts against the idea of a chain of evenly spaced mini buckets as the tow line would be stretched in a manner that the final pressure would be at the end of it and not fractionally distributed throughout.

So what I am posting is not verbiage.

What I am trying to do for you is to prevent you from doing a lot of unnecessary work to achieve results that can be bettered, with less effort , greater comfort, and greater certainty of use, I respectfully submit to you.

There are many voluminous tomes written about this subject. What really counts is practical experience which I have and quite obviously you haven't, therefore I am trying to pass on to you the benefit of my experience, that you should be properly informed, to your benefit, and my satisfaction.

1. I've made one

2. It didn't take long or cost much

3. It fits in a small holdall and deployment is the same procedure as would be followed with the Seabrake

4. I place more weight on the US Coastguard's mathematical modelling and sea trials over your account of a single deployment of the Seabrake in what do not sound like survival conditions.

5. More than that, I prefer to believe these actual accounts and logs of boats that survived after deploying a JSD in severe conditions

Your blind arrogance in assuming that Fascadale, myself and others on here are incapable of conducting our own research and making our own choices beggars belief.

- W

 

[VO5]

Webcraft, sincerely, do your own thing, you will find out for yourself.
Best Wishes.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Your blind arrogance in assuming that Fascadale, myself and others on here are incapable

- W

Woo-hoo! Webby's on song!

 

[Conachair]

Webcraft, sincerely, do your own thing, you will find out for yourself.
Best Wishes.

well, hopefully not but probably sooner or later I will get into heavy weather, though VO5, I'll listen more to Hal Roth and http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f122/jordan-series-drogue-vs-para-anchor-22705.html & Adlard Coles' heavy weather sailing than I would to you.
Your style of posting on this subject comes over as THIS IS THE ONLY WAY - which, come on, there is no only way in a boat. Jordan series drogues are viewed as wonderful by many people, they ain't "contraptions" - that's your viewpoint.
Seamanship is being openminded.

 

[Spuddy]

He does go on doesn't he !
I hope that those who started to contribute about the JSD haven't been put off - I wanted to find out as much as poss about THAT. Can we please continue with the original thread.

 

[Blue5]

He does go on doesn't he !
I hope that those who started to contribute about the JSD haven't been put off - I wanted to find out as much as poss about THAT. Can we please continue with the original thread.

Agree, I rated this thread when it started and wish people would respect the OP question. It is nothing if not ignorant to try and keep shouting down the original request.

While VO5 assumes he is being a saviour to all on the planet it is a bit tiring reading the same information on every post he submits to this thread.

So, please, please VO5 go start a thread on "Seabrake v Jordan Series Drogue" , I will be happy to read it but I rated this thread for its nature of discussing practical problems in DIY making of a JSD

 

[Monique]

I am very interested about a JSD as well... let the comments continue... about JSD.

No more of the other option

 

[Fascadale]

Back to the JSD debate

Mr Jordan talks about attachment points. His concern is with minimising chaffe and being sure that the "strong points" are actually strong enough.

On my boat I would not trust my stern cleats and I think using the main winches would invite complications.

Mr Jordan recommends purpose designed stainless straps be bolted onto the hull.

Has anyone done this or is there another solution?

If bolting on a strap, what in engineering terms, is stronger. A triangular plate with the bolts in a vertical line, or a straight strap with the bolts aligned horizontally ?

 

[webcraft]

Back to the JSD debate

Mr Jordan talks about attachment points. His concern is with minimising chaffe and being sure that the "strong points" are actually strong enough.

On my boat I would not trust my stern cleats and I think using the main winches would invite complications.

Mr Jordan recommends purpose designed stainless straps be bolted onto the hull.

Has anyone done this or is there another solution?

If bolting on a strap, what in engineering terms, is stronger. A triangular plate with the bolts in a vertical line, or a straight strap with the bolts aligned horizontally ?

We should have reinforced our stern cleats but haven't. What I did was arranged a quick way of attaching the bridle eyes to the main winches as well as the stern cleats, so that there was a back-up in the event the stern cleats proved to be not up to the job. Lazy but marginally better than nothing.

For now there are no plans to go more than three days offshore so it is not so urgent, but at some point I hope to reinforce the stern cleats - that seems to me to be simpler than building in separate attachment points. You can back your cleats with whatever arrangement of plates or straps seems sensible and fits the configuration of your hull.

Interested to hear what other people have done though.

- W

 

[VO5]

Now I know I am going to get some flak for posting the following but I am going to make the comment anyway which is:~

If your vessel was designed for heavy weather sailing in deep water surely all the fittings chosen and fitted under supervision from an agency such as Lloyds or Burea Veritas would be suitable for ventures of that sort ?

If your vessel was not fitted to the highest spec you have to consider why, including the non suitability of putting her through heavy weather and just intended for coastal and inshore sailing and that's all.

 

[Talbot]

Not the first time he has tried to drown out a JSD thread. Personally I am much more convinced by the theory and logic of the JSD.

However, a word of caution. Consider the weak points in any of these kits. The shackles, the potential chafe points, and the connection to the boat.

The shackles need to be moused to prevent them coming undone, or replaced with something better.

The strongpoint on the deck, needs to be built such that you could use it to suspend the whole boat from a crane by them. possible around 18 inches long with equivalent inside the boat, and with the GRP inside beefed up to take the strain. If it is cored, then you need to replace a lot of the core in that area, and really add significant additional layers of material.

 

[webcraft]

.
Chafe is a killer. Roger Taylor lost his JSD due to chafe in a storm off Iceland, but rode out the remainder of the storm by deploying a builders bag. It did not give as comfortable a ride as the JSD, but MingMing survived.

The recommended method of connecting bridle to boat and bridle to main drogue line is spliced soft eyes. We have a hard eye only at the end where the chain/weight is attached. It's easy enough to splice your own soft eyes in nylon doublebraid.

The use of nylon is important as it reduces shock loadings on the attachment points.

- W

 

[VO5]

Not the first time he has tried to drown out a JSD thread. Personally I am much more convinced by the theory and logic of the JSD.

However, a word of caution. Consider the weak points in any of these kits. The shackles, the potential chafe points, and the connection to the boat.

The shackles need to be moused to prevent them coming undone, or replaced with something better.

The strongpoint on the deck, needs to be built such that you could use it to suspend the whole boat from a crane by them. possible around 18 inches long with equivalent inside the boat, and with the GRP inside beefed up to take the strain. If it is cored, then you need to replace a lot of the core in that area, and really add significant additional layers of material.

No Sir, no, no amd NO.

You are persuaded by the theory and logic of it.

I do not need to be persuaded because I have experienced it in a catermaran in a top nine in very confused seas in deep water several years ago.

The cat was rigged with a brace from which was deployed a Jordan.

I have NEVER, in all my seagoing experience in the last 40 years plus been so sh## scared. We all thought it was the last day of our lives. We thought the cat would be tipped over. Why ? Because of lack of DIRECTIONAL STABILITY, its that simple.

Having explained that you can see that in contradistinction to other posters I do not persist by being persuaded by theories and logic but by actual real experience. I am therefore motivated to impart this to you.

For this reason I am obliged to topically interject, you understand ?

Now another point.

The gear, which includes shackles should be brutally oversize.

The potential chafe points should as practicably as possible, be eliminated.

The shackles should be moused, I agree, but in addition they should connect and fasten through THIMBLES and not bare rope.

The same applies to the eyes / bights / loops.

These should be properly prepared : Wormed, Parcelled and properly protected with burlap and made so that they just slip over the cleats and no more.

We now go on to the cleats themselves..

My vessel weighs 18,500 lbs stripped.

As I have practically HM Dockyard aboard the weight is considerably more.

I had an argument in a US yard with a US Coastguard retiree on the merits of British construction under Lloyds supervision versus all else. I had a bet with him for a case of beer.

The bet (for a crate of beer) was simply to see if each of our boats could withstand being lifted by the cleats, loaded and with full water and fuel tanks.

I knew this could be done as on a visit to Waterlooville I was told that a Sealord could be lifted by the cleats.

So I went ahead and had her lifted and then lowered by the cleats there and then. Of course I won the case of beer. The other boat was not lifted.

If a boat is not constructed originally to this standard then it is not intended for use in deep water in any weather is my argument.

 

[VO5]

.
Chafe is a killer. Roger Taylor lost his JSD due to chafe in a storm off Iceland, but rode out the remainder of the storm by deploying a builders bag. It did not give as comfortable a ride as the JSD, but MingMing survived.

The recommended method of connecting bridle to boat and bridle to main drogue line is spliced soft eyes. We have a hard eye only at the end where the chain/weight is attached. It's easy enough to splice your own soft eyes in nylon doublebraid.

The use of nylon is important as it reduces shock loadings on the attachment points.

- W

And now its your turn Sir.

You have read what I have to say about soft eyes. They have to be properly protected from chafe. The burlap need not be canvas. I use the material used to make those builders bags used for lifting cement, gravel, rubble, etc., with a crane to be very effective, stable and hard wearing, and what is more they are very weather resistant and tough.

Nylon...is not a good idea.

A better idea is a rope with minimum stretch. Minimum stretch reduces slingshot effect. The reduction of slingshot effect is important to maintain directional stability.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Excellence

This is an excellent thread IMHO.

I'm revisiting/learning useful detailed stuff, and I've been a devotee of drag devices for decades. Of course there are strongly-held but divergent opinions, and this forum is an ideal place for all the conviction, experience and cant to be dragged out, for all of us to sift through.... provided each and every contributor doesn't let himself - and the rest of us - down by resorting to discourtesy.

One may well choose one technique/device over another, but it's valuable to know of all the others for the time one is aboard someone else's boat and needing to deploy what's there.

As for mousing of shackles, I carry a couple of reels of Monel wire for permanent locking. I also now carry and use a range of nylon cable ties, for they're swift to employ and reliable. They also don't need pliers and don't shred fingers while sliding around on a seas-washed foredeck in the middle of the night.

 

[Aeolus]

Please let's not make any more references to the forum bore or to what he has said- it only provokes him. Life must be very very very dull in Gib.

 

[VO5]

Please let's not make any more references to the forum bore or to what he has said- it only provokes him. Life must be very very very dull in Gib.

Life in Gib is not dull.

Life in Sussex is very dull indeed as you know.

I lived in Worthing for 5 years so I know, until I got fed up with it moved to Gib. The sun is shining here and people are sunbathing amd swimming whereas you are condemned to life in your Sussex with an icicle on the end of your nose, so don't be cheeky..

 

[VO5]

This is an excellent thread IMHO.

I'm revisiting/learning useful detailed stuff, and I've been a devotee of drag devices for decades. Of course there are strongly-held but divergent opinions, and this forum is an ideal place for all the conviction, experience and cant to be dragged out, for all of us to sift through.... provided each and every contributor doesn't let himself - and the rest of us - down by resorting to discourtesy.

One may well choose one technique/device over another, but it's valuable to know of all the others for the time one is aboard someone else's boat and needing to deploy what's there.

As for mousing of shackles, I carry a couple of reels of Monel wire for permanent locking. I also now carry and use a range of nylon cable ties, for they're swift to employ and reliable. They also don't need pliers and don't shred fingers while sliding around on a seas-washed foredeck in the middle of the night.

Yes, very good post.

If a breakthrough is made that improves the previous we would be foolish to ignore it and even more foolish not to adopt it.

After my terrifying experience I would never choose to use a Jordan ever again, in any sea on any vessel.

 

[webcraft]

Nylon...is not a good idea.

A better idea is a rope with minimum stretch. Minimum stretch reduces slingshot effect. The reduction of slingshot effect is important to maintain directional stability.

Everyone recommends nylon for a JSD BECAUSE it is stretchy.

I have no idea why you had such a bizarre experience with a JSD deployed from a catamaran but I can only surmise that either the drogue was not constructed correctly or it was the wrong size for the vessel or it was not deployed correctly. (Perhaps no weight at the end?)

The stretch is part of what takes the snatch out of the system. There is no 'directional instability' or surfing (or whatever you mean by the 'slingshot effect') because a percentage of the droguelets are always working. This is why the thing is so damn long.

Now please go away and leave us poor deluded JSD disciples to fester in our pitiful ignorance, there's a good fellow.

- W