Jibing the spinnaker

[flaming]

A video

Although rather cringeworthy, this video gets the major points across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFUnV2BEwH4&feature=related

 

[monkfish24]

no i'm absolutly rubbish we all have our own way's, we're all used to our own crew and we each have a different way that works for us so saying one way is wrong is incorrect, i'm used to sailing with a very experienced crew and helm in river conditions which call for everything being done at a rush, meaning sometimes we may be a bit inefficient when it comes to sail power. Best bet for the OP is to take what we've all said and try it, modify it and make it work for his boat and crew. In sailing i've learnt there is no definite way to do something, only ways which one person prefers.

 

[Judders]

I rather fear that Monkfish's method, with it's depowered kite, will cost boatlengths. Much better to keep the thing flying and driving the boat.

 

[Fergus]

Couple of quick questions - do you attach the pole to the sheet or to the loop created where the sheet is made fast to the clew? I have a baby stay and the pole is a monster so it's quite a job to move it when gybing - can't end to end as the mast end fitting is a locking rod arrangement - any tips?!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Couple of quick questions - do you attach the pole to the sheet or to the loop created where the sheet is made fast to the clew? I have a baby stay and the pole is a monster so it's quite a job to move it when gybing - can't end to end as the mast end fitting is a locking rod arrangement - any tips?!

If you've got a donkeys knob arrangement as the inner end of the pole, and a babystay, then there is no quick and easy way to gybe the kite. All the boats that I've sailed with a fixed inboard end to the pole in the way you describe had two poles - but we are looking at boats of over 50 foot long, with kites that cost the price of a small family car. I remember trashing one in an ocean race when over 1000 miles offshore and realising that I'd just blown £6,000 of someone elses money... Anyway, I thred the drift.

 

[monkfish24]

Couple of quick questions - do you attach the pole to the sheet or to the loop created where the sheet is made fast to the clew? I have a baby stay and the pole is a monster so it's quite a job to move it when gybing - can't end to end as the mast end fitting is a locking rod arrangement - any tips?!

If you're going to be using it a lot then the best thing to do is get it conected with a bottle screw with a handle, it's not needed downwind. Just make sure the crew reattach it!

The pole is to be made fast to the sheet, not the eye, to allow it to move in and out freely especially for the drop.

I conceed then dip pole maybe the easiest method. I have heard a lot of people saying it so i will try it out this weekend and i may be converted

 

[john_morris_uk]

The pole is to be made fast to the sheet, not the eye, to allow it to move in and out freely especially for the drop.

Sorry to be picky but are you sure you mean the sheet? How do you tension the guy if its not running through the end of the pole?

 

[monkfish24]

Sorry to be picky but are you sure you mean the sheet? How do you tension the guy if its not running through the end of the pole?

I think you are being picky. The ropes are still called sheets until the pole is attached to the sheet which will become the guy. I'm sure he understands what i mean.

 

[flaming]

I think you are being picky. The ropes are still called sheets until the pole is attached to the sheet which will become the guy. I'm sure he understands what i mean.

Unless you're running seperate guys and sheets.

Which I would reccomend on anything bigger than about 30 feet.

 

[monkfish24]

why am i even bothering? The question was, do you clip the pole to the eye which connects to the spinaker or the rope. In that case it doesn't matter whether it's twin ropes or single. RTFQ, read the f..ing question

 

[alan17]

This thread seems to be degenerating into a posting duel!

 

[john_morris_uk]

why am i even bothering? The question was, do you clip the pole to the eye which connects to the spinaker or the rope. In that case it doesn't matter whether it's twin ropes or single. RTFQ, read the f..ing question

There's no need to swear!

The reason I am being picky is that there are lots of novices who read these forums and take note of what people say. Put it in print and people can think that its true, even when its tosh.

Spinnaker sheets and guys are not the same thing - they are usually lead to different parts of the boat. Spinnaker sheets usually go to a block right on the quarter and guys are lead through a block somewhere midships.

Its the GUY that goes through the end of the spnnaker pole if you are running a two lines per side sheets and guys set-up. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Not being picky - just don't want to lead people astray.

 

[andygc]

Is any of the argument helping the OP?

He has an inexperienced crew and a boat of 35 ft. He has separate guys and sheets. He doesn't have an experienced racing crew and he doesn't have trained foredeck gorillas. His question was gybe the kite or gybe the main first.

For me, with those constraints, gybe the main and make sure it stays gybed - you are not going to kill anybody faffing around with the spinnaker, but an inadvertent gybe of the main while faffing around could easily cause a serious injury. And when you have gybed it think about rigging the preventer before you do anything else. If you are set up properly that takes a few seconds. If racing you may be a bit slow getting the kite to draw again, but when the crew has become experienced the whole thing will get slicker.

On my boat, 28 feet and a crew of two, I find the easiest thing to do is to use the snuffer, gybe the main, dip gybe the pole, and then hoist the snuffer away again. But I'm not racing.

Because I think proper spinnaker control requires a foreguy and not a downhaul span taken down to the middle of the foredeck, cross-pole gybing is a complete anathema - but then, I learnt to fly a spinnaker long ago on a racing boat with a masthead kite that was far too powerful to cross-pole gybe anyway. For me, it's a technique for dinghies and small dayboats.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Gybing the spinnaker.
This was something we had only just learnt to do the morning of the Round the Island Race 2009 and some of our contributors in this posting helped greatly by their comments on ybw to do it as well as we did in practice.
We were around The Needles and got the spinnaker up and within seconds realised that we were on the wrong tack.
Our intended course was to go up close to the Island for a few miles to keep out of the tide yet still with good wind.
We were going well, so in fear of having a disaster if we tried to gybe, we left it and so our course was almost a straight line to St Cath's.
Later, when we reached the very confused water near St cath's we began to roll a lot too much and our inexperience led us to the decision to drop the spinnaker and run with prevented main and poled out genoa, goosewinged .
This was my usual method when short handed and I've used it for years with great sucess.
However, when we covered the spinnaker with the outfurled genoa, we then tried to lower the spinnaker to the turtle bag.
It came down a foot and stuck. The helm lost his concentration and we broached, the spinnaker trying to pull us broadside past st Cath's :-0
With cockpit full of green stuff and ..."!*!**!+!*" .....being the order of conversation, we regained control by letting spinnaker sheets and guys go loose and tried to roll it up lengthwise and with two men pulling dow on her the spinnaker halliard shredded itself near the top to the point that the spinnaker was down by a third of its original height and roll wrapped and tied to the shrouds.
During this effort, we set up the run goosewinged and were again on our way with only a few minutes lost.
It would have been interesting to know how much better we would have done if we had gybed when we should have done passed the Needles
We still managed 54th overall, so we were a very happy bunch later on in the day.

 

[flaming]

Is any of the argument helping the OP?

He has an inexperienced crew and a boat of 35 ft. He has separate guys and sheets. He doesn't have an experienced racing crew and he doesn't have trained foredeck gorillas. His question was gybe the kite or gybe the main first.

For me, with those constraints, gybe the main and make sure it stays gybed - you are not going to kill anybody faffing around with the spinnaker, but an inadvertent gybe of the main while faffing around could easily cause a serious injury. And when you have gybed it think about rigging the preventer before you do anything else. If you are set up properly that takes a few seconds. If racing you may be a bit slow getting the kite to draw again, but when the crew has become experienced the whole thing will get slicker.

On my boat, 28 feet and a crew of two, I find the easiest thing to do is to use the snuffer, gybe the main, dip gybe the pole, and then hoist the snuffer away again. But I'm not racing.

Because I think proper spinnaker control requires a foreguy and not a downhaul span taken down to the middle of the foredeck, cross-pole gybing is a complete anathema - but then, I learnt to fly a spinnaker long ago on a racing boat with a masthead kite that was far too powerful to cross-pole gybe anyway. For me, it's a technique for dinghies and small dayboats.

The forums would be quite dull with no thread drift at all, it's a discussion around the subject, and hopefully everyone's learning something. I know I am.

The argument against gybing the main first is basically that it blankets the kite, which runs the risk of collapsing it. And collapsed kites love forestays!

The issue of preventers - risky. In round the cans racing you can often need to gybe with very lttle warning, if you're worried about the main whilst gybing the kite I would just centre it.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Is any of the argument helping the OP?

Yes

For me, with those constraints, gybe the main and make sure it stays gybed - you are not going to kill anybody faffing around with the spinnaker, but an inadvertent gybe of the main while faffing around could easily cause a serious injury. And when you have gybed it think about rigging the preventer before you do anything else.

Interesting thought and definitely safer.

Because I think proper spinnaker control requires a foreguy and not a downhaul span taken down to the middle of the foredeck

I think I know what you mean but not sure. Our downhaul runs from the pole bridle to the base of the mast. Guys run from pole to blocks midships beam.

 

[andygc]

I think I know what you mean but not sure. Our downhaul runs from the pole bridle to the base of the mast. Guys run from pole to blocks midships beam.

The common set up I see on boats around me is a bridle under the pole which connects to a downhaul which either runs to a block somewhere in the middle of the foredeck or to the base of the mast. It pulls the pole down, but not forward. The pole is held forward against the guy by the weight of wind in the sail.

The boats I learned on (and my own) have a foreguy going from the end of the pole to the bow, and not a downhaul. The pole is fixed by three triangulating ropes - the foreguy, the guy and the uphaul. The position of the pole does not rely on the load in the spinnaker. That means the spinnaker tack is at a fixed point wholly under the control of the crew. That is not the case with a downhaul as the pole can swing aft if the spinnaker is not drawing - eg rolling in light airs or when the sail is coming down.

The issue of preventers - risky. In round the cans racing you can often need to gybe with very lttle warning, if you're worried about the main whilst gybing the kite I would just centre it.

Of course - racing with a large experienced crew round the cans is quite different from a passage race or cruising with a small or inexperienced crew. If the downwind leg is 30 or 40 miles you rig a preventer, if it is just across the bay in a fleet of 50 boats you probably won't.

The argument against gybing the main first is basically that it blankets the kite, which runs the risk of collapsing it. And collapsed kites love forestays!

Again I don't disagree with you - it's all about context. If the inexperienced crew gybe the spinnaker first it's masked by the main before the main is gybed instead of afterwards - it's still masked. A well coordinated crew does it all together. If Jason is racing then you're probably right - pin the main in the middle - as long as the helm does not get distracted from what he is doing, which is steering and not shouting instructions at the gorillas. For my short-handed cruising there's no spare pair of hands for the mainsheet. SWMBO is concentrating on going straight and pulling sheets and guy while I'm pulling stuff on the foredeck.

 

[forethought]

When we discovered why you dip-pole on bigger boats

Is any of the argument helping the OP?

He has an inexperienced crew and a boat of 35 ft. He has separate guys and sheets. He doesn't have an experienced racing crew and he doesn't have trained foredeck gorillas. His question was gybe the kite or gybe the main first.

For me, with those constraints, gybe the main and make sure it stays gybed - you are not going to kill anybody faffing around with the spinnaker, but an inadvertent gybe of the
<snip>.

We tried end for end until the spinnaker took a lurch across while filled halfway through learning to gybe a Sunsail 36 footer in about a Force 4 ... and the foredeck person ended up hanging from the pole above the sea .... So then we did dip pole after that.....

The effective limit with single sheets and end to end gybing is the strength of the foredeck person in pushing the pole out to get it back on the mast - My 24 footer is OK with a 35 square metre spinnaker..