Jibing the spinnaker

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Help please. What is the recommended sequence for jibing the spinny? Jibe the main and the boat first then the spinny or the other way round or what?

 

[Judders]

Not a very hepful answer I know but it depends on the boat, the set up, the size of the crew and the conditions. Generally though, because when you gybe the kite you are hopefully sailing dead down-wind, you should be able to leave the main where it is for a second or two. Of course if you have a big crew and plenty of room then one chap can look after the main.

 

[monkfish24]

By far the easiest method, to keep the kite open and full of wind through the gybe is to end to end the pole. As long as the pole is rigged with bridles for the uphaul and down haul. Remove the inboard end from the mast and making sure the genoa sheet goes over the end of the pole before connecting the pole to the sheet which will become the new guy. The pole will be now connected to both the sheets of the spinaker. Remove the opposite end of the pole from the spinaker allowing it to become the new sheet and connect to the mast, The main can gybe at any time because the spinaker will be flying almost dead centre on the boat. I've done this on a signa 35 and didn't have any problems. I've been foredecking for nearly 8 years and this is my recommended method. If you're anywhere near plymouth or portsmouth them i can quite easily come out one day and show you

 

[flaming]

Help please. What is the recommended sequence for jibing the spinny? Jibe the main and the boat first then the spinny or the other way round or what?

I'm getting bored of starting an answer with "it depends" but...

It depends!

Fully crewed or shorthanded?
End for end or dip pole?
Skill level of driver?
Skill level of crew?
Wind strength?

The most important thing is to keep the spinnaker flying. Once it's off the pole it's unstable, and it is mainly the driver's job to keep it full by steering the boat at it. Sometimes this means gybing straight away as the kite makes a lunge to leward, but if your crew have done their job perfectly it should be happy on the old side until the crew have gybed the pole and you can turn through the gybe.
If you are struggling, the "training wheels" method in moderate winds is to pin the main in the middle and just ignore it until you're ready.

 

[flaming]

By far the easiest method, to keep the kite open and full of wind through the gybe is to end to end the pole. As long as the pole is rigged with bridles for the uphaul and down haul. Remove the inboard end from the mast and making sure the genoa sheet goes over the end of the pole before connecting the pole to the sheet which will become the new guy. The pole will be now connected to both the sheets of the spinaker. Remove the opposite end of the pole from the spinaker allowing it to become the new sheet and connect to the mast, The main can gybe at any time because the spinaker will be flying almost dead centre on the boat. I've done this on a signa 35 and didn't have any problems. I've been foredecking for nearly 8 years and this is my recommended method. If you're anywhere near plymouth or portsmouth them i can quite easily come out one day and show you

35 foot is really pushing the upper limit of end for end in my opinion. Anything bigger and I'd always want to dip pole. We dip pole on a 37, and haven't lost a gybing duel in years.

Plus, dip poling means you want a light bowperson. A great excuse to get more girls racing!

 

[john_morris_uk]

By far the easiest method, to keep the kite open and full of wind through the gybe is to end to end the pole. As long as the pole is rigged with bridles for the uphaul and down haul. Remove the inboard end from the mast and making sure the genoa sheet goes over the end of the pole before connecting the pole to the sheet which will become the new guy. The pole will be now connected to both the sheets of the spinaker. Remove the opposite end of the pole from the spinaker allowing it to become the new sheet and connect to the mast, The main can gybe at any time because the spinaker will be flying almost dead centre on the boat. I've done this on a signa 35 and didn't have any problems. I've been foredecking for nearly 8 years and this is my recommended method. If you're anywhere near plymouth or portsmouth them i can quite easily come out one day and show you

With respect - it depends on the boat and the way it is set up.

One might argue that the EASIEST way is to have two poles... Set up the new pole before you take the original one down.

Some boats you have to end for end. Some boats you have to dip-pole gybe.

I think its a bit rash to say that end for ending is ALWAYS the best way.

On very large boats and in strong winds, the end for end method can be downright dangerous if you get it the slightest bit wrong or the driver isn't very good.

At a sailing school I once worked at, the spinnaker was always referred to as 'the unseamanlike sail'. Having said that I love spinnaker work, and always look for a chance to get it out of the bag whether we are racing (not very often nowadays) or cruising.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Some extra thoughts following mine (and others) posts.

The best way to gybe the kite really does depend on how the boat is set up. Some smaller boats don't have sheets and guys on the spinnaker. On our Sigma 33 we certainly changed to one line each side in anything other than the very strongest winds, and we didn't trip the guy at the drop, but had extra long lines which ran all the way back to the hatch with the clew of the sail. (Its much quicker and saves time on the foredeck).

So the question to the OP is what is the boat and how is the gear set up? Have you got one pole or two? Have you got a baby stay? (prevents dip pole methods!) Have you got sheets and guys? How big is the crew?

As a taster, the common factor in all kite gybes is sailing dead down wind and trying to keep the kite filled. (I often centre the main in light winds in order to keep clean air to the kite - but you couldn't do this in heavy winds or in some boats as you might induce a huge broach if you get the steering the tiniest bit wrong!!)

 

[monkfish24]

I see your point about two poles being the easiest, but who wants to carry two poles on anyhting big? End to ending is the easiest for keeping the spinnaker full as both sheets can be locked off to keep it pinned slightly. I've been with crew where i can release both ends of the pole and they can keep the spinnaker flying. Dip pole is better on larger boats, i agree but as soon as the crew muck up and wrap the unsteady spinnaker round the forestay... it's game over.

I stand by on end to end

 

[flaming]

I think you misunderstand dip pole, as this is exactly what happens. You do of course need sheets and guys both sides.

However, this thread wasn't really about which was better, but on how to improve his method.
For which we need to know what the OP's boat is set up for.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I see your point about two poles being the easiest, but who wants to carry two poles on anyhting big? End to ending is the easiest for keeping the spinnaker full as both sheets can be locked off to keep it pinned slightly. I've been with crew where i can release both ends of the pole and they can keep the spinnaker flying. Dip pole is better on larger boats, i agree but as soon as the crew muck up and wrap the unsteady spinnaker round the forestay... it's game over.

I stand by on end to end

I don't understand your comment "who wants to carry two poles on anything big."

Come and sail on 50 and 60 and 70 foot yachts (which I have done) and try end-for-ending.

I know that you are convinced that end-for-ending is the bees knees, but sometimes it isn't.

I have a 39 foot boat and an extra pole is on my shopping list - it makes life MUCH easier with a short crew.

 

[monkfish24]

surely the bigger the boat the bigger the poles, meaning the more crew needed. I don't think end to end is the bee's knees, i'm going on the assumption that the boat is no bigger than around 35 foot based on averages. I very much doubt there many people on here who have a 50 ft boat who either a) have some sort of crew who have never gybed a spinaker or b) haven't been around sailing long enough to have been on a boat that has never had a spinaker to gybe. Ok so twin pole is better on big boats but obviously we don't know the type of boat so i'll stay schtum.

 

[john_morris_uk]

surely the bigger the boat the bigger the poles, meaning the more crew needed. I don't think end to end is the bee's knees, i'm going on the assumption that the boat is no bigger than around 35 foot based on averages. I very much doubt there many people on here who have a 50 ft boat who either a) have some sort of crew who have never gybed a spinaker or b) haven't been around sailing long enough to have been on a boat that has never had a spinaker to gybe. Ok so twin pole is better on big boats but obviously we don't know the type of boat so i'll stay schtum.

No problem - I just get the heebie jeebies when someone claims or implies that once particular way is the definitely the best way. The OP asked about improving his gybing - without further info the method will have to wait.

I alos know lots of people with big boats (some of whom are on here) who don't even put the spinnaker up let alone gybe it.

 

[michael_w]

Fit a prodder and sail with an asymmetric Gybing's a doddle.

I went down this route as my current boat didn't have any kite gear at all.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I gybe the spinny as follows: -

1. Boat on a run or just shy of dead run in lighter airs, in heavy airs, just by the lee (or erring the steering to the lee)
2. Spinny set for dead run
3. Ready the pole, sheet / guy swap / tension depending on dip or end to end
4. Gybe the spinny, Dip pole or end to end (depending on the yacht I am skippering)
5. Gybe the main. This can be as soon as the pole end is in the new spinny tack (sail corner) so as to keep the spinny filled, or it can be a bit after in heavy winds, to allow the pole to get up or attached to mast

A point worth noting is to keep the boat in a straight line / on a run as you gybe both the spinny and main. Its so important that the helms person does this.

In heavy seas and big wind where I have a snuffer, I partially snuff the spinny, gybe the spinny, then unsnuff it on the new tack. I have used this on short handed sailing as well.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

It depends!

Fully crewed or shorthanded?
End for end or dip pole?
Skill level of driver?
Skill level of crew?
Wind strength?

.

4 CREW
End for end
Limited - it's the driver who's asking for help
Also limited - cruisers who are just 2 seasons into racing
How much is too much?

Boat is 35 ft Starlight displacement 7 tonnes. Sheets and guys both sides. Uphaul, downhaul and all other ropes lead back. No baby stay.

Excuse the ignorance here, but apart from the obvious whats the practical difference between end for end and dipping? Seems to me that there isnt much since you would have to have both ends of the pole free to get it inside the forestay.

 

[monkfish24]

if your end to ending i recommend gybing the main before, covering the spinaker and de-powering it, and when the crew will be most aware of a moving boom. Or whilst the two ends are clipped on the the spinaker sheets because the spinaker will be fairly stable. With reference to how heavy a wind can you use it in, only with what your comfortable with, you'll find as you get more comfortable with it you'll be happier to use it. I've used it in a very heavy following sea and 40 knot wind in a 26ft and it made the ride so much more comfortable as the bow was being lifted out of the water and wasn't trieing to cut into the wave in front.

 

[flaming]

4 CREW
End for end
Limited - it's the driver who's asking for help
Also limited - cruisers who are just 2 seasons into racing
How much is too much?

Boat is 35 ft Starlight displacement 7 tonnes. Sheets and guys both sides. Uphaul, downhaul and all other ropes lead back. No baby stay.

Ok, that's fairly lightly crewed for that size of boat. Assuming you mean 4 in total, including the driver, the crew setup should be.

Driver, kite trimmer, pit and bow.
If you have 4 plus helm, use two people for the role I termed "pit" below. In a fully crewed boat this role is actually 4 people.

The Driver does nothing but drive.
The kite trimmer has the old sheet in his hand trimming. When the decision to gybe is made he steps into the cockpit (if not there already) and take up on the new sheet. This takes the load off the guy. Meanwhile the driver is soaking low, the pitman is squaring the pole to almost 90 degrees and the bowman has fetched the new guy.
Once the pole is in place, and the trimmer has the new sheet loaded the driver waits until he is sure that the kite is stable then calls "TRIP".
The pitman then releases the old guy, and gives slack in pole up and pole down.
Meanwhile the bowman trips the pole off the mast, puts the new guy in that pole end and pushes it across the boat, when he gets to the other end of the pole he removes the old guy and clips that end on to the mast. He then yells made.
At this point the pitman can now take up on the new guy.

Whilst the kite is off the pole, the driver just drives the boat at the kite. In an ideal world this is a straight line, or slight curve.

In an ideal world the guy will be taken up, then the pitman can gybe the main as the driver turns the boat. However, if you're not driving the right angle before the kite is tripped you may need to gye the main first. Might be an idea to start by centering the main in lighter breezes, until you get used to it.

To get better at gybing, here's what you do. We did this repeatedly a couple of seasons ago, and we've barely fluffed a gybe since. Still do it before the start to practice every now and again, especially with new people on the boat.

Hoist the kite as normal.
Set to gybe, tensioning the new sheet.
Trip the pole and put it away.

Now sail downwind, gybing every 30 seconds or so, using the sheets to fly the spinnaker.

This will get you used to flying the kite with no pole. With so few crew it's a very usefull skill to have as any delay with the pole and you and the trimmer can keep the boat going and the kite full whilst the pit and bow sort it out.

Most spinnaker problems are caused (and I'm allowed to say this because I am one) by the helm.

 

[flaming]

if your end to ending i recommend gybing the main before, covering the spinaker and de-powering it, and when the crew will be most aware of a moving boom. Or whilst the two ends are clipped on the the spinaker sheets because the spinaker will be fairly stable. With reference to how heavy a wind can you use it in, only with what your comfortable with, you'll find as you get more comfortable with it you'll be happier to use it. I've used it in a very heavy following sea and 40 knot wind in a 26ft and it made the ride so much more comfortable as the bow was being lifted out of the water and wasn't trieing to cut into the wave in front.

I'm sure you're an excellent sailor, but some of the things you've said in this thread have made me wince. Blanketing and depowering the spinnaker during a gybe is a potential way to wrap it round the foresay. Keeping it full of wind and flying is the aim.

Also, having the pole clipped onto both sheets at once (assuming single lines..?) is not something I would do, as it is pulling the corners in and down from their natural positon, again increasing the risk of collapsing the kite.

 

[flaming]

Excuse the ignorance here, but apart from the obvious whats the practical difference between end for end and dipping? Seems to me that there isnt much since you would have to have both ends of the pole free to get it inside the forestay.

Missed that first time round.

No, with the inboard end of the pole at its normal flying height, the outer end should fit inside the forestay comfortably. Most dip pole boats (like us) have a mark on the pole track at the lowest height it fits through.

 

[monkfish24]

no i'm absolutly rubbish we all have our own way's, we're all used to our own crew and we each have a different way that works for us so saying one way is wrong is incorrect, i'm used to sailing with a very experienced crew and helm in river conditions which call for everything being done at a rush, meaning sometimes we may be a bit inefficient when it comes to sail power. Best bet for the OP is to take what we've all said and try it, modify it and make it work for his boat and crew. In sailing i've learnt there is no definite way to do something, only ways which one person prefers.