Gunfleet
Well-Known Member
I want to know how all these sailing boats do 6 knots. I should be so lucky.
Jet ski again but my mistake?
- Thread starter EASLOOP
- Start date
Malish
Well-Known Member
RIB_imposter
Well-Known Member
? I don't even know why that field exists in the profile, and certainly don't know why its different!
OK but that is quite different from the original statement by Chris Robb "How can a yacht at 6 knots hope to keep out of the way of a craft travelling at 20knots?". Now the faster vessel is intentionally (or accidentally but stupidly) getting in your way. But there is nothing in the OP to suggest that he swerved across the bow or changed course suddenly
It would appear that the vessel is breaking local speed limits anyway (as I highlighted may be the case in my earlier post).
I've already stated in my first reply that common sense says you don't do this in such areas. Your original post implied that the faster vessel should keep out the way - which is innapropriate/incorrect and reinforces the stereotype of sailors forgetting that their special privilidges stop when the engine is started. I'm not advocating driving like an idiot; I'm not condoning towing skiers/toys in stupid places; I'm not suggesting that breaking the speed limit is acceptable. However I am arguing that relying on the other craft reading your mind and getting out your way because its easier for him - is not the best route to avoiding an accident.chris_robb said:
fireball
Well-Known Member
Just going back to the 'faster boat should keep out of the way' argument ...
If you were towing something in a straight line across the bows of other craft would you not look to take avoiding action before it was too late? The jetski may well have been stand-on vessel (speeding or not - colregs doesn't appear to be bothered about that!) but that doesn't remove his responsibility entirely.
Sometimes you can't do much with a tow - been in that situation loads of times where I just have to carry on regardless - because at the speed I can achieve it is feasible for me to weave around - and certainly not good for the one being towed! However, at higher speed you can do a lot to avoid close quarters, especially advisable if you are towing!! All you need is one un-observant person and it can all end in tears!
If you were towing something in a straight line across the bows of other craft would you not look to take avoiding action before it was too late? The jetski may well have been stand-on vessel (speeding or not - colregs doesn't appear to be bothered about that!) but that doesn't remove his responsibility entirely.
Sometimes you can't do much with a tow - been in that situation loads of times where I just have to carry on regardless - because at the speed I can achieve it is feasible for me to weave around - and certainly not good for the one being towed! However, at higher speed you can do a lot to avoid close quarters, especially advisable if you are towing!! All you need is one un-observant person and it can all end in tears!
lw395
Well-Known Member
1) Is it not UK law that jetskis are not vessels under colregs?
2) Colreg 6 Safe Speed
3) Colreg 2a
Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel or ...master.., from the the consequences of......neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen...
Same as with the racing rules, sounds like jetski was in the wrong, but we are still expected to keep a good lookout for him and endeavour to avoid a collision.
The faster boat may not be explicitly required to keep out of the way, but there unless he has been holding a constant course for several minutes, the faster vessel will be in breach of rule 17 if altering course towards a give way vessel.
Don't worry, it was probably not a nice child anyway.
2) Colreg 6 Safe Speed
3) Colreg 2a
Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel or ...master.., from the the consequences of......neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen...
Same as with the racing rules, sounds like jetski was in the wrong, but we are still expected to keep a good lookout for him and endeavour to avoid a collision.
The faster boat may not be explicitly required to keep out of the way, but there unless he has been holding a constant course for several minutes, the faster vessel will be in breach of rule 17 if altering course towards a give way vessel.
Don't worry, it was probably not a nice child anyway.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Definitely. Despite the rules which I think make the ski stand on (even if the yacht was under sail), overall I'd put most of the blame on the jetski for getting himself into such a vulnerable position. If the ski had turned to sbd late the tube would probably have swung to port towards the yacht so he should have acted early.
I tow a tube sometimes. It's a huge responsibility. You would usually be doing 14-18 knots with a tube, enough to cause serious injuries to the rider if they hit something and the tube can swing really wide.
I stay way away from everything or haul the tube in, yes the yacht should see it but the consequences are too great if they don't not worth the risk.
Incidentally I hardly ever go in the tube myself - the only person I've trusted enough to take the helm with me in the tube is forumite Foxy.
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Boathook
Well-Known Member
beam wind plus a good spring ebb
So it was speed over the land and not through the water ?
NealB
Well-Known Member
Elessar
Well-Known Member
because I thought sailing vessels have to give way to towing vessels.
But your question made me look it up and I was wrong in this case as this is only true if the tow causes the vessel to be Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre. A jetski wouldn't fall under that definition.
RIB_imposter
Well-Known Member
Not as I recall. IIRC the case law established (with some doubt/controversy that may still be under appeal?) that the Merchant Shipping Act did not apply, as a Jetski was not a "sea going vessel".
RIB_imposter
Well-Known Member
Is that not all arbitrary and irrelevant? Whether the PWC should have been there or should have been acting that way is irrelevant - and therefore hypothetical internet discussions about who is right or wrong are a waste of time. The reality is that PWC users (and other high speed vessels) will tow skiers/ringos etc in places they shouldn't and this situation will arise. So: if you see a boat of this type keep your eyes peeled for the possible tow. Act early and defensively to get yourself out the way of anyone stupid enough to do this in restricted space!
tinkicker0
Well-Known Member
Sh*t happens, don't beat yourself up about it. The jetski exhibited poor situational awareness in that he didn't allow for the length of the towrope and your forward speed PERIOD.
If HE had, YOU wouldn't be doing the soul searching now.
Quoting COLREGS till they wear out the tongue will not prevent mistakes or idiocy.
The guy was riding in a inappropriate manner and likely forgot the ringo he was towing, he likely was not intent on killing the child, he had a lapse of judgement.
You were taken by surprise by the speed of the jetski, you took action that was appropriate at the time in order to avoid a collision. You avoided the collision and therefore you acted correctly, probably saving the kids life too.
We all have in the past made mistakes or do something which after the fact seems stupid, and will commit even more in the future even if it seemed appropriate at the time.
We learn from this and resolve never to do it again.
For instance:
Not too long ago, I opened the throttle wide and bust the river speed limit (briefly)to avoid a rapidly deteriating situation during an overtake. The vessel Skipper I overtook called me a few well deserved choice words.
On reflection, it was not my finest hour and more appropriate action could have been taken.
I berated myself thoroughly for it and resolved never to put myself in such a situation again, all I had to do was turn around and wait a little while instead of committing to a poorly thought out situation.
And i'm the sort of guy that likes do it right.
Everybody gets it wrong sometime, its only a serious problem when paint touches or the miscreant has not learnt the lesson.
Well Done, a young person may well grow up to be a nobel prize winner because you took the appropriate action.
COLREGS - for the guidance of wise men and the blind adherance of fools.
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Searush
Well-Known Member
No-one has so far mentioned that the overtaking vessel must keep clear of the overtaken one. If a jetski is doing 3x your speed plus it is definitely overtaking, even if it is at an odd angle, they have an obligation to keep clear.
As already mentioned, poo happens & idoits exist everywhere, you can't be responsible for them all, so don't beat yourself up over it.
As already mentioned, poo happens & idoits exist everywhere, you can't be responsible for them all, so don't beat yourself up over it.
RIB_imposter
Well-Known Member
Eh? Its only overtaking if it approaches from abaft the beam.
NealB
Well-Known Member
Indeed!! Thanks again!
EASLOOP
Well-Known Member
Thanks to you all for what turned out to be a good discussion. My concern in this situation was not for the jetski driver but for the child in the innertube. I could not believe the actions of the driver putting a child in that sort of danger. For my part my father used to say to me when driving a car always drive as though every other driver on the road was an idiot. I shall ensure that in future I keep a better look out for idiots on the water.
Thanks again
Thanks again
tinkicker0
Well-Known Member
Never a truer word spoken. However, my point is, not to assume the Jetski guy carried on riding off into the sunset whistling a happy tune. He got it seriously wrong, he knows this because as you mentioned, he looked around, he saw the danger and no doubt is giving himself a bigger mental asskicking than you are.
He probably will be more careful in the future.
He is, despite riding a PWC, a human being, probably quite a smart one too and someone you would probably like if you met face to face. Forgive his mistakes, as I hope the skipper I mentioned in my previous post has forgiven mine.
No one deliberately sets out to have an accident, do stupid things, or get right up someone's nose. Err 90% don't anyway.
COLREGS as I said are for the guidance of wise men and the blind adherance of fools.
I have seen many times on these forums where near collisions have occurred because the stand on vessel obstinately maintains his course and speed when it is apparent that the other vessel is on a collision course. Waving the sheet of COLREGS at the other boat will not prevent the collision.
It takes TWO brains to cause a collision where both vessels are under way and have seen each other.
Where the stand on vessel has seen the other, maintains his course and speed, whilst the skipper on the other vessel is attending to a problem/ looking at his chart / getting stung by a wasp and fails to see the other boat, who has caused the collision?
Can't be the bloke with a wasp stuck on the end of his nose, he didn't see the other boat. The obstinate skipper, following COLREGS to the bitter end knowingly and willingly steered his boat into the path of the other.
One skipper may be lawfully wrong, but the other is morally wrong.
If you had stuck to the COLREGS and turned the other way, a child would have potentially been killed.
In your case you used common sense, gave the COLREGS the finger and a tragedy was averted.
Time to duck back under the parapet now, I heard some rounds being chambered.
WoodyP
Well-Known Member
Quote "If you had stuck to the COLREGS and turned the other way, a child would have potentially been killed. "
The OP turned to Port to avoid running into to the child in the rubber ring.
Surely, you are much safer to turn in the direction of travel of the jet ski and run parralel. This reduces the closing speed. Or at least if I remember correctly from my Coastal/Yachtmaster Course, that was what the instructor said (not me)...........wouldn't want to start a colregs debate! (and that's what I would have done as well).
The OP turned to Port to avoid running into to the child in the rubber ring.
Surely, you are much safer to turn in the direction of travel of the jet ski and run parralel. This reduces the closing speed. Or at least if I remember correctly from my Coastal/Yachtmaster Course, that was what the instructor said (not me)...........wouldn't want to start a colregs debate! (and that's what I would have done as well).
tinkicker0
Well-Known Member
Like the OP, I was taught on my Powerboat level 2 that the done thing is for the stand on vessel in imminent danger of collision from stbd, to turn into the threat and either unilaterally or both vessles then turn to stbd.
The idea is that the other skipper will be expecting you to turn stbd because you are now head on.
The OP made a split second decision not to do this and avoided the collision.
Some people would not, because they had been told to turn stbd in that situation and stbd it would be, come hell or high water.
I'm not knocking COLREGS, at least everyone knows what to expect in most situations and I know that which way to turn is not specifically mentioned in them, but sometimes it is better to apply common sense and have a near miss, rather than be taking photos of your impending doom to show the coroner afterwards that you obeyed the regs. From reading some threads on the forums this sometimes appears to be the case (ironic statement).
I'm not looking for a COLREGS debate either, i'm just trying to give the OP a pat on the back while making the point that everyone makes mistakes and sometimes following "the rules" is not the best couse of action to take when your situational awareness tells you otherwise.
The idea is that the other skipper will be expecting you to turn stbd because you are now head on.
The OP made a split second decision not to do this and avoided the collision.
Some people would not, because they had been told to turn stbd in that situation and stbd it would be, come hell or high water.
I'm not knocking COLREGS, at least everyone knows what to expect in most situations and I know that which way to turn is not specifically mentioned in them, but sometimes it is better to apply common sense and have a near miss, rather than be taking photos of your impending doom to show the coroner afterwards that you obeyed the regs. From reading some threads on the forums this sometimes appears to be the case (ironic statement).
I'm not looking for a COLREGS debate either, i'm just trying to give the OP a pat on the back while making the point that everyone makes mistakes and sometimes following "the rules" is not the best couse of action to take when your situational awareness tells you otherwise.
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