Jester Challenge - Is the size of boat still justified?
- Thread starter Scotty_Tradewind
- Start date
boatman61
New member
????
I thought I was a bit bi-polar
Naah... just figured what the hell.. I was being ungentlemanly..
Its not the 'Winning'... its the taking part...
a unique gathering of solo sailors in friendly competition..
What more can I say...
I'd only be fighting it out with the other tail end charlie...
Athene V30
Active member
Scotty Tradewind if you want to we could swap my Cutlass 27 (quite Twister-like) and your Tradewind for the 2012 Challenge?
No?
No?
tomski
New member
Excuse the newbie but I tend to agree with some that size does matter in what seems to be the spirit of this particular challenge...to me the challenge is not just the single hand aspect but the fact that you are doing it on what is typically deemed too small to cruise an ocean on due to comfort, provisions, weight etc...
On the flip side this is a gentleman's challenge and no reason why other yachts should not be included...though the bit about personal satisfaction of having sailed fairly against peer vessels of a like construction, rig, size etc would have to be amended
On the flip side this is a gentleman's challenge and no reason why other yachts should not be included...though the bit about personal satisfaction of having sailed fairly against peer vessels of a like construction, rig, size etc would have to be amended
Seajet
...
I'm not an entrant but I do read history !
The size should stay as is, if people want to go larger there are other races.
The size should stay as is, if people want to go larger there are other races.
TimBennet
New member
Although the TwoStar Transatlantic race does have a class for 27 to 30 foot boats, the STIX requirement is still a minimum of 32, which equates to RCD Cat A.
I'm struggling to think of many sub 30ft boats that can meet this requirement. It usually needs a displacement of at least 3.5 tonnes to stand a change of making 32. I know the Vancouver 28 scrapes in, but does anyone know of any others?
I'm struggling to think of many sub 30ft boats that can meet this requirement. It usually needs a displacement of at least 3.5 tonnes to stand a change of making 32. I know the Vancouver 28 scrapes in, but does anyone know of any others?
TimBennet
New member
I've looked through the IRC site and apparently the Pogo 8.50 also qualifies and is less than 30 ft LOA.
But there's a dearth of older designs getting IRC certificates so it's hard to know which would pass. They of course would be more likely to have an SSSN where 35 is the requirement.
But there's a dearth of older designs getting IRC certificates so it's hard to know which would pass. They of course would be more likely to have an SSSN where 35 is the requirement.
Signed Out
Active member
What's all that mean then Tim? All sounds a bit racy to me...
PEEJAYSEA
New member
TimBennet
New member
After the '79 Fastnet race, the search was on to try and find a way of 'screening' those boats with a tendency to capsize from those that weren't. Classically, the Contessa 32 was taken as an example of one of the good guys and the OOD34 as representative of those they wanted to screen out.
Once these 'qualities' were identified, each was then quantified and allocated a 'score' which when totalled gave a boat its "Stability and Safety Screening Number" (SSSN). The higher the SSSN, the more 'seaworthy' the boat. Races then fell into various Categories from inshore to round the world events and a minimum SSSN was proscribed for each. The Scottish Series feeder race to Tarbert was CAT 3 for which you could just get a Sonata to qualify, whereas the OSTAR is CAT 1 and requires a minimum SSSN of 35.
When the EU Recreational Craft Directive was dreamed up, the work the RORC and others had done in formulating the SSSN was incorporated and developed into the methodology for calculating each new vessel's stability index or STIX number. Each design category (ocean going, inshore, sheltered waters, etc) would be designated by a variety of requirements including a minimum value for its STIX. For example, a boat designed to be 'Ocean going' (CAT A), would need a minimum STIX of 32. After its introduction, as more and more new boats were produced with this value already known, it made sense that race organisers in Europe should use the same STIX numbers when deciding on what boats were suitable for which of their races.
Now, the wrinkle in all this, is that a significant component of the STIX number for ordinary boats is a minimum size requirement. Following the mantra that bigger boats are more sea worthy than little boats, it followed that there must be a transition point, where little boats become big boats! In their wisdom, this fell at about 32 feet LOA and/or a little over 3 tonnes in displacement. Although other factors can compensate to some degree for boats smaller than this, they either are very heavy displacement for their length (Vancouver 28) or have extremely low centres of gravity due to deep bulbed keels, etc (Pogo 8.50, Corby 29). The Contessa 32 just scrapes home (STIX 33) whereas the Beneteau Figaro 1 at 30ft doesn't, but the Figaro 2 at 32ft does!
The upside to all this is that although the Royal Western has thrown open the TwoStar to boats between 27 and 30 feet, it has stuck with the ISAF requirement that for an OSR Cat 1 Trans Ocean race, the minimum STIX should be 32. (Or SSSN 35 in old money). I was simply wondering if any one knew of any other boats that were eligible?
So when the small boat class was eliminated from the OSTAR, it wasn't directly discrimination against their size, but rather recognition that it's almost impossible for boats less than 32 feet to meet what had become the minimum requirements for a Trans Ocean race.
There is some disquiet that having such a large component of the STIX to be a simple size factor, allows larger boats to be over reliant on this and compensates from shortcomings in the other criteria. There is some thought that the minimum STIX for an ocean going boat should equal it's LOA in feet. Whilst the focus has been on raising the bar for bigger boats, eg a 40 footer needing a minimum STIX of 40 for RCD CAT A, there has been little interest in extending the same thinking to boats below the 32ft 'cut off'. What if compliance for smaller boats was also allowed when there STIX equalled their LOA? A Hunter 27OOD would comply at STIX28 but something like a First 25.7 would still fail, STIX 22.
I believe the sliding STIX requirement has some merit but the research to prove this would be expensive and there is no money available as it's only in poor people's interest for the work to be done!
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Signed Out
Active member
Thanks for that Tim, as much as I read these pages and the yachting press (admittedly rarely the ones that cover the sporting side), and think with my interest and experience in the marine world is fairly broad, I have not heard reference to STIX. I am not so sure about SSSN, but could be confused with SSSR.
Your post is interesting to read, and it is also an interesting sounding topic; possibly your description makes it so, and really is as dry as old bones. It could make for an interesting discussion, but to me the idea of concepts like these creeping into the Jester mix would be disastrous, though I do not suspect you are suggesting this.
Perhaps I am idealising the "race" and it's entrants a little too much, but threads such as this has edged towards, and the idea of incorporating restrictive, even if sound, legislation into the event dismays me. As it stands I have nothing to do with the Jester challenge besides a pipedream of eventually being able to participate, so perhaps I am talking out of my "payscale" and beyond my welcome here (hopefully not, and apologise if I am).
I will confess that I was surprised in a slightly negative way that people would enter such craft as a Figaro and Mini, but know that as I was not present, and do not personally know anyone involved beyond these gizmo walls, I do not know enough to judge.
Again thanks Tim, and all the true Jesterites (feel cheeky to call you Jesters).
Your post is interesting to read, and it is also an interesting sounding topic; possibly your description makes it so, and really is as dry as old bones. It could make for an interesting discussion, but to me the idea of concepts like these creeping into the Jester mix would be disastrous, though I do not suspect you are suggesting this.
Perhaps I am idealising the "race" and it's entrants a little too much, but threads such as this has edged towards, and the idea of incorporating restrictive, even if sound, legislation into the event dismays me. As it stands I have nothing to do with the Jester challenge besides a pipedream of eventually being able to participate, so perhaps I am talking out of my "payscale" and beyond my welcome here (hopefully not, and apologise if I am).
I will confess that I was surprised in a slightly negative way that people would enter such craft as a Figaro and Mini, but know that as I was not present, and do not personally know anyone involved beyond these gizmo walls, I do not know enough to judge.
Again thanks Tim, and all the true Jesterites (feel cheeky to call you Jesters).
TimBennet
New member
I'm certainly not trying to make anything 'creep into the Jester event'!
If this has any relevance at all to the Jester it might this:
Firstly, and perhaps the more importantly in my view, is that the upper limit of 30ft shouldn't be too rigidly enforced for Jester events. The original class in the OSTAR had 30ft as its upper limit purely as a numerical nicety, whereas the current restriction is actually to prohibit boats not strictly at 30ft or less, but rather those with a STIX below the ISAF's arbitrary limit. There's a lot of boats from 30 to 32 feet who are ineligible for OSTARS, AZABS and 2Stars but sadly, are also ineligible for the Jester Challenges. They feel unloved by everyone!
Secondly, if the idea that the minimum value of STIX for a seaworthy boat is a function of LOA rather than a fixed value for all boats could be proved, then this too might have some benefits to those that want to enter blue water events in smaller boats. For this to happen, the 'powers that be' would have to accept the empirical evidence from decades of past races and voyages that their 'size cut-off' set at around 30/32 feet is an absurdity and should look for a better definition of an 'ocean going' boat. To this end I believe the formulae where "an ocean going boat's STIX ≥ LOA" maybe a worthwhile starting point.
These advantages of having a better formal definition of 'ocean going' might include :
1. Manufacturers would start offering small blue-water boats again.
2. Organiser would accept smaller boats into all their events again.
3. It would rid 'Jester sailors' (and their ilk) of their ridiculous pariah status. I enjoy being non-conformist, but why should we need to justify how we sail, just because the orthodoxy is so patently wrong?
If this has any relevance at all to the Jester it might this:
Firstly, and perhaps the more importantly in my view, is that the upper limit of 30ft shouldn't be too rigidly enforced for Jester events. The original class in the OSTAR had 30ft as its upper limit purely as a numerical nicety, whereas the current restriction is actually to prohibit boats not strictly at 30ft or less, but rather those with a STIX below the ISAF's arbitrary limit. There's a lot of boats from 30 to 32 feet who are ineligible for OSTARS, AZABS and 2Stars but sadly, are also ineligible for the Jester Challenges. They feel unloved by everyone!
Secondly, if the idea that the minimum value of STIX for a seaworthy boat is a function of LOA rather than a fixed value for all boats could be proved, then this too might have some benefits to those that want to enter blue water events in smaller boats. For this to happen, the 'powers that be' would have to accept the empirical evidence from decades of past races and voyages that their 'size cut-off' set at around 30/32 feet is an absurdity and should look for a better definition of an 'ocean going' boat. To this end I believe the formulae where "an ocean going boat's STIX ≥ LOA" maybe a worthwhile starting point.
These advantages of having a better formal definition of 'ocean going' might include :
1. Manufacturers would start offering small blue-water boats again.
2. Organiser would accept smaller boats into all their events again.
3. It would rid 'Jester sailors' (and their ilk) of their ridiculous pariah status. I enjoy being non-conformist, but why should we need to justify how we sail, just because the orthodoxy is so patently wrong?
foillan
New member
The Jester Azores Challenge is run on a ‘gentlemanly basis’ within the following guidelines:
for sailing vessels between 20 and 30 feet (including multi-hulls)
human power is the only acceptable alternative propulsion to that of the wind: rowing or clubhauling, for instance, are permissible
single-handed to Praia de Vitoria, Terceira
one way
stops allowed
no time limit
engines may be fitted but only used to charge batteries for equipment such as mobile telephones, steering and navigation systems. The sole exceptions to this, within the spirit of the Jester Azores Challenge, would be the avoidance of an imminent ‘mayday’ situation; responding to a distress call from a fellow seafarer or when within the harbour limits of an intermediate port en route. If the use of an engine - or the acceptance of a powered tow from another vessel, whether a Jester Azores Challenger or not - becomes necessary to meet, for instance, a personal time limit or, simply, to avoid a frustrating calm, then the details should be declared on arrival to fellow Jester Azores Challengers. By common agreement - and using the co-ordinator as an arbitrator if there is no common agreement - the arrival order may then be amended.
age of skipper to be over 18 years at the start
no fees
no inspections
no regulations: skippers will be entirely responsible for the equipment they take, based on their own experience
only hint of bureaucracy will be the signing of a form of indemnity accepting the skipper’s full duty of care for himself, his dependants and his fellow seafarers during his participation in the JAC 2012.
skippers should ensure that they have the correct visa (if required) for entry into the Azores and any likely mid-way stop
entries will be accepted up to the day of the start (ie by the morning of 27th May 2012)
Please do not dilute these simple guidelines. It is not a race. They work well and I hope they will continue to.
for sailing vessels between 20 and 30 feet (including multi-hulls)
human power is the only acceptable alternative propulsion to that of the wind: rowing or clubhauling, for instance, are permissible
single-handed to Praia de Vitoria, Terceira
one way
stops allowed
no time limit
engines may be fitted but only used to charge batteries for equipment such as mobile telephones, steering and navigation systems. The sole exceptions to this, within the spirit of the Jester Azores Challenge, would be the avoidance of an imminent ‘mayday’ situation; responding to a distress call from a fellow seafarer or when within the harbour limits of an intermediate port en route. If the use of an engine - or the acceptance of a powered tow from another vessel, whether a Jester Azores Challenger or not - becomes necessary to meet, for instance, a personal time limit or, simply, to avoid a frustrating calm, then the details should be declared on arrival to fellow Jester Azores Challengers. By common agreement - and using the co-ordinator as an arbitrator if there is no common agreement - the arrival order may then be amended.
age of skipper to be over 18 years at the start
no fees
no inspections
no regulations: skippers will be entirely responsible for the equipment they take, based on their own experience
only hint of bureaucracy will be the signing of a form of indemnity accepting the skipper’s full duty of care for himself, his dependants and his fellow seafarers during his participation in the JAC 2012.
skippers should ensure that they have the correct visa (if required) for entry into the Azores and any likely mid-way stop
entries will be accepted up to the day of the start (ie by the morning of 27th May 2012)
Please do not dilute these simple guidelines. It is not a race. They work well and I hope they will continue to.
Signed Out
Active member
Possibly the key word is in the title- "challenge".
Like when used in cycling (at least in our household) referring to following a known route such as a Coast to Coast or LEJOG (Land's End- John O'Groats), which are completed as personal challenges, albeit often in company. I think a comparison can be made.
Of course a little competitiveness will creep into all such activities...
Comes across (seen a similar reference somewhere. Earlier in this thread?) as a kind of "rally for duffers" (nothing derogatory in that phrase, but maybe there's a better choice of words available... old-school corinthians perhaps?), or loose gathering of independents.
Although of course, the roots are in competitive events, and it's as close to racing and sport as I will ever be interested in!
Cheers, Jem the invader.
Like when used in cycling (at least in our household) referring to following a known route such as a Coast to Coast or LEJOG (Land's End- John O'Groats), which are completed as personal challenges, albeit often in company. I think a comparison can be made.
Of course a little competitiveness will creep into all such activities...
Comes across (seen a similar reference somewhere. Earlier in this thread?) as a kind of "rally for duffers" (nothing derogatory in that phrase, but maybe there's a better choice of words available... old-school corinthians perhaps?), or loose gathering of independents.
Although of course, the roots are in competitive events, and it's as close to racing and sport as I will ever be interested in!
Cheers, Jem the invader.
LASSALLE
New member
spirit of Jester
Hello !
For us newcomers, it is the spirit of the JESTER that caught us. And the length of the boat is an important part of this spirit.
Jean-Jacques
Hello !
For us newcomers, it is the spirit of the JESTER that caught us. And the length of the boat is an important part of this spirit.
Jean-Jacques
Seajet
...
I can think of a couple of people who raced across the Atlantic for a shilling, who might agree with 'keeping the spirit' !
sailor211
Active member
I believe that the jester challenge should retain the ethos. Low cost and limited length.
Having completed an OSTAR in my cruising boat I can say the cost of the race is high, some justified some not ( such as a 3 year cert on the liftraft not being good enugh must be inspected less than 12 months before finish) Also having to have a SAT phone, where I would be happy to leave and arrive without any contact with the outside world. I can understand the organisers concerns but would be happy to sign a wavier.
Wether enterants competing in state- of-the-art-racers like a pogo8.5 fare a concern I am not sure, the challange is getting there by yourself regardless of boat.
There is a need for a gentlemans race like the Jester for boats 30' to say 40.
No rules. Agreed start time and finish line. Make sure you are safe and die like a gentleman if the boat goes down without calling one calling on others.
Possible classes such as racers and cruisers, and divisions such as less than £30K investment, less than £50k for side bets. But a different race different years maybe a Harlequin challange.
Having completed an OSTAR in my cruising boat I can say the cost of the race is high, some justified some not ( such as a 3 year cert on the liftraft not being good enugh must be inspected less than 12 months before finish) Also having to have a SAT phone, where I would be happy to leave and arrive without any contact with the outside world. I can understand the organisers concerns but would be happy to sign a wavier.
Wether enterants competing in state- of-the-art-racers like a pogo8.5 fare a concern I am not sure, the challange is getting there by yourself regardless of boat.
There is a need for a gentlemans race like the Jester for boats 30' to say 40.
No rules. Agreed start time and finish line. Make sure you are safe and die like a gentleman if the boat goes down without calling one calling on others.
Possible classes such as racers and cruisers, and divisions such as less than £30K investment, less than £50k for side bets. But a different race different years maybe a Harlequin challange.
G12
Member
I know it's got rules, has a fat entry fee and everything but isn't the ARC for that? Then again, maybe you're right.
jyotisharma
New member
Hello i am jyoti
Yet thankfully there are many wooden boat enthusiasts.There are even some professionals building wooden boats. The problem is that they tend to be hidden away.
Yet thankfully there are many wooden boat enthusiasts.There are even some professionals building wooden boats. The problem is that they tend to be hidden away.
PEEJAYSEA
New member
Harlequins Challenge?
I am fairly new to the sailing scene but I have to agree with the sentiment of OP that the JC should retain its status as is.
That said for those of us who fall outside of the JC status and have no interest in events such as the ARC, then there is a "gap in the market" which needs filling.
I for one have a very limited budget but have been lucky enough to find an older yacht that is 36 ft. I would love to participate in a "gentleman's challenge" along the lines of the JC - without getting involved in something as well structured / organised as the ARC.
How would one go about moving this idea forward?
Could this become a forum in its own right?
Happy to get involved and hopefully there are other interested parties out there....
I am fairly new to the sailing scene but I have to agree with the sentiment of OP that the JC should retain its status as is.
That said for those of us who fall outside of the JC status and have no interest in events such as the ARC, then there is a "gap in the market" which needs filling.
I for one have a very limited budget but have been lucky enough to find an older yacht that is 36 ft. I would love to participate in a "gentleman's challenge" along the lines of the JC - without getting involved in something as well structured / organised as the ARC.
How would one go about moving this idea forward?
Could this become a forum in its own right?
Happy to get involved and hopefully there are other interested parties out there....