Jessica Watson failed to notice ship at 1 mile

[Woodlouse]

I'm more interested to know how she didn't spot it visually. My guess is that she - unintentionally - only confirmed what the radar had told her was there, so didn't see a ship she wasn't expecting.

What the report claimed is that her radar showed a ship 6 miles off her starboard quarter which she claimed she couldn't get a visual on. I reckon she stuck her hear out the hatch, looked off her starboard quarter and just went back in when she didn't see it without doing a 360 sweep of the horizon.

 

[mikeinkwazi]

Yes I know the owner/crew scenario! So why did it not show up - any idea?

W.

I have no idea what caused that glitch, my point is that radar is not 100% so that it is possible that the lass did not get any alarm regarding the ship that ran her down. I can give several instances from 10 years of commercial delivery, when either I did not see or was not seen on radar alone. Usually it is the ship not seeing the yacht . For instance, coming up the coast of Portugal and picking lots of returns from buoys too big ships we failed on a couple of largish yachts. Scenario: Me and owners wife in cockpit spotting traffic, husband below engrossed in radar. Poor man had a fit when we called him up! As to the Irish sea incident, as I said, radar worked before and worked thereafter?
This sort of thing happened often enough to me when skippering deliveries, so give the girl the benefit of the doubt.

 

[NorthUp]

Radar failure

I have lost the radar return from a large ship (60,000 tons?) at a range of only 2 - 3 miles- the scanner on the radar arch was pointing up in the sky when the Mobo was on the plane.
Dropped off the plane, and the return was sufficient to start 'arching' on the display a few minutes later.

A yacht may have similar difficulties when heeled well over under sail, if the radar scanner is not gimballed.


2 pence worth.

 

[VO5]

The deck officer on watch on the merchant ship detected a green light to port.

In principle the merchant vessel had right of way.

But then the bearing did not alter.

This implies risk of collision exists at that juncture.

If the steady bearing persists it means the risk of collision still exists but is more grave.

In circumstances like this the prudent action is to make an alteration of course to starboard, and this alteration must be SIGNIFICANT, meaning not 10degrees but 30 instead or even 45 = SIGNIFICANT.

This has to be done in good time to avoid a CLOSE QUARTERS SITUATION.

If this does not rectify the scenario then "round the clock" is needed, never to port, always to starboard.

In either action the ship's position relative to the unidentified bearing will have changed SIGNIFICANTLY. At his juncture the ship can resume its course once the danger has passed.

You notice I post SIGNIFICANT and SIGNIFICANTLY in block letters.

This is because a small alteration of course is not sufficient in circumstances like this one. It can in fact lead to further complication, as seemed to be the case as a result of a last minute action side swiping the yacht.

Many ship's officers are not familiar with the advance and transfer of the ship they are navigating, then therefore last minute swings can bring these results.

 

[webcraft]

The deck officer on watch on the merchant ship detected a green light to port.

In principle the merchant vessel had right of way.

The only thing that can be showing a single green light (i.e. with no white masthead light) is a sailing vessel under way. It is the stand-on vessel, not the ship.

How can you come out with such an opinionated post when you start with something that is so totally and utterly wrong? Have you ever actually studied the Colregs? I suggest you don't go out at night until you have.

- W

 

[webcraft]

Enlighten me

.

You are not correct, sorry.

You should not only study the colregs yourself, you should interpret them intelligently.

Enlighten me then. What other vessel (other than a sailing vessel under way) would be showing a single green light?

- W

 

[VO5]

The only thing that can be showing a single green light (i.e. with no white masthead light) is a sailing vessel under way. It is the stand-on vessel, not the ship.

How can you come out with such an opinionated post when you start with something that is so totally and utterly wrong? Have you ever actually studied the Colregs? I suggest you don't go out at night until you have.

- W

You are not correct, sorry.

You should not only study the colregs yourself, you should interpret them intelligently.

Obviously you have no experience of what it is like to be on the bridge of a big ship. It would do you a lot of good to have that experience. Then you would not have a blinkered view like the one you have about sailing vessels and big ships.

It is you who ought not to go out at night if you expect big ships to give way to you in your Drabscombe Lugger or whatever dinghy you are sailing.

 

[webcraft]

Whoops - time warp

.

You should not only study the colregs yourself, you should interpret them intelligently.

(My reply got slotted in above your answer)
I scored 99% in the Colregs section of the written YM Offshore examination, and have sailed thousands of miles at night, quite a bit of it in busy shipping lanes. But maybe I am wrong.

So - go on - tell me what vessel other than a sailing vessel shows a single green light? Don't just bluster nonsense about interpretation, tell me what other vessel shows a single green light when under way at night.

And if it was a sailing vessel how can you possibly say

In principle the merchant vessel had right of way.

Your concept of 'intelligent interpretation' sounds a bit scary to me - please explain it.

- W

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You are not correct, sorry. You should not only study the colregs yourself, you should interpret them intelligently.:

I think he *is* correct.

It is you who ought not to go out at night if you expect big ships to give way to you in your Drabscombe Lugger or whatever dinghy you are sailing.

I don't think he said he expected big ships to give way. He merely said the rules require it.

 

[webcraft]

Thanks Toad

.

I don't think he said he expected big ships to give way. He merely said the rules require it.

Precisely. Had I been on watch on Ella's Pink Lady that night and seen the ship I would almost certainly have made a turn to starboard a couple of miles or more away, even though I was technically the stand-on vessel.

However, had I NOT seem the ship for whatever reason I would have expected the Officer of the Watch, having seen a light that could only be a sailing vessel, to know and implement the IRPCS and to not run me down.

VO5, I really hope you aren't an OOW on a big ship, you are scaring me. Are you the DAKA of the merchant fleet?

- W

 

[David_Jersey]

I spend a great deal of time at sea, the last month and a bit as Skipper/Captain (I don't like either term) and if I had £50 for everytime I've been woken up and called to the bridge due to the OOW's concern for the behaviour of pleasure craft (and a few commercial ships but around only around 5% of the incidents)

I am guessing that Captain does not want the ship zig zagging accross the ocean willy nilly (for cost / sleep reasons) so won't be looking to change course too much "just in case" - at least not for the small stuff.

Just trying to understand what's going on on the bridge.........say, Crew member on watch spots a light / yacht - after monitoring (visually / radar / whatever) thinks it might lead to a problem that would involve a course change - when is it normal that he contact an officer / captain for a 2nd opinion / authorisation to change course?............when he is 100% sure? or as soon as he thinks it might later lead to a course change? (accepting that he might turn out to be wrong...........and will therefore have woken the captain unneccesarily - for the 12th time ).

 

[VO5]

.



Enlighten me then. What other vessel (other than a sailing vessel under way) would be showing a single green light?

- W

Yes I will.

I have a Yachtmaster Ocean Ticket that I have held since the 4th August 1971. I have thousands of miles under my belt. I have sailed extensively single handed.

I have served as a deck officer in the British Merchant Marine, because I was interested to get Big Ship Seagoing experience as well. I can tell you keeping a watch on a big ship in congested waters is invaluable experience for any yachtsman because you gain a dimension you would not otherwise experience by just sailing a yacht or even a motorboat.

I sailed under several captains. Each one was different, from the extremely precise and meticulous to the opposite. One of them would insist on not giving way to fishing vessels.

If there was a fleet of fishing boats dead ahead in his path he would just plough through the lot, ignoring all signals from them to show they were engaged in fishing.

I presume there were claims against the vessel for damage done to nets, but how he got away with it time and time again I do not know.

As he was the master of the vessel I could not countermand his authority but I did make a point of recording this type of incident in the log during his presence on the bridge and I insisted he initial my entry.

Now I will explain to you, and any ship's officer will confirm to you that watchkeepers on Merchant Ships in general regard sailing vessels as obstacles. The smaller the vessel the more insignificant the obstacle. I know this is a callous view, but it is the real world, you see ?

Because they view them as obstacles they are mindful of the differentials in mass (tonnage) and force (speed). Then therefore, they will give way to a crossing sailing vessel if that sailing vessel gives an additional indication of its heading by for example flashing the sails with a strong light, but equally, in the same way that yachtsmen are not familiar (hands on experience) with the manoeverability of a big ship under way and making way through the water, so a watchkeeper on a big ship does not have a reality of what it is like from a yachtsmans point of view.

Therefore there has to be compromise.

The compromise is that provision is made in "The Rules" if you like, for the watchkeeper, on detecting that a close quarters situation is developing, for him to make AMPLE PROVISION in GOOD TIME to avoid this situation developing and worsening as a matter of PRUDENT SEAMANSHIP.

The recommendation has always been that an alteration of course to avoid a close quarters situation developing (which implies a real risk of collision) ought to be SIGNIFICANT.

This means that irrespective of either vessel being under sail does not, in the interests of prudent seamanship give the right to the sailing vessel to have right of way or for the big ship to stand on but for either party or both parties to take action iIN GOOD TIME and SIGNIFICANTLY to prevent real risk of collision inexhorably developing.

Therefore in practice and in principle, if a Merchant Vessel or any other large power driven vessel's watchkeeper (or Master if he is on the bridge) observes another vessel WHOSE BEARING IS NOT SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERING he has the duty to act IN GOOD TIME and SIGNIFICANTLY, which is the opposite of what appears to have happened in this case, in which the action was NEITHER IN GOOD TIME nor SIGNIFICANT, with the consequence that the last minute avoiding action side swiped the yacht.

 

[webcraft]

Why?

.
Surely anyone qualified to stand a watch on the bridge of a large merchant vessel should be capable of steering the vessel in compliance with the IRPCS? If I was the skipper I would be very annoyed if I was woken up every time my OOW saw another vessel on radar or visually; and if as in this case (allegedly) the other vessel was only acquired visually at a range of four miles then I hardly think there would be time to wake the Old Man and for him to get to the bridge in his dressing gown and slippers . . .

I really hope this isn't what was happening that night on the Silver Yang

- W

 

[VO5]

I am guessing that Captain does not want the ship zig zagging accross the ocean willy nilly (for cost / sleep reasons) so won't be looking to change course too much "just in case" - at least not for the small stuff.

Just trying to understand what's going on on the bridge.........say, Crew member on watch spots a light / yacht - after monitoring (visually / radar / whatever) thinks it might lead to a problem that would involve a course change - when is it normal that he contact an officer / captain for a 2nd opinion / authorisation to change course?............when he is 100% sure? or as soon as he thinks it might later lead to a course change? (accepting that he might turn out to be wrong...........and will therefore have woken the captain unneccesarily - for the 12th time ).

No. The principle is that the captain (The Master of the Vessel) is in command and his officers do the watches. The officer on the bridge who sees a situation developing has to act. He informs the Master immediately that he is going to act. The Master may or may not come up on the bridge to supervise or to take control of the situation himself, personally. It all depends on the circumstances, including factors such as speed, visibility, sea state, traffic and environment. The captain has to trust his officers for the bridge to function correctly. It is therefore up to the Captain if he feels he ought to come up to the bridge or not when notified.

 

[VO5]

.
Surely anyone qualified to stand a watch on the bridge of a large merchant vessel should be capable of steering the vessel in compliance with the IRPCS? If I was the skipper I would be very annoyed if I was woken up every time my OOW saw another vessel on radar or visually; and if as in this case (allegedly) the other vessel was only acquired visually at a range of four miles then I hardly think there would be time to wake the Old Man and for him to get to the bridge in his dressing gown and slippers . . .



- W

Your observation is precisely correct.

 

[VO5]

.

Precisely. Had I been on watch on Ella's Pink Lady that night and seen the ship I would almost certainly have made a turn to starboard a couple of miles or more away, even though I was technically the stand-on vessel.

However, had I NOT seem the ship for whatever reason I would have expected the Officer of the Watch, having seen a light that could only be a sailing vessel, to know and implement the IRPCS and to not run me down.

VO5, I really hope you aren't an OOW on a big ship, you are scaring me. Are you the DAKA of the merchant fleet?

- W

Don't be cheeky......I am explaining everything very clearly.

 

[VO5]

I think he *is* correct.



I don't think he said he expected big ships to give way. He merely said the rules require it.

Listen toad, don't start....
He is not correct and I have gone to great lengths to explain why.
What is in print and what the rules mean in terms of practical and prudent seamanship are different because they are subject to professional interpretation and not blind obedience.....there's a good gentleman now...

 

[webcraft]

Scary stuff that does not alter the facts

Now I will explain to you, and any ship's officer will confirm to you that watchkeepers on Merchant Ships in general regard sailing vessels as obstacles. The smaller the vessel the more insignificant the obstacle. I know this is a callous view, but it is the real world, you see ?

Because they view them as obstacles they are mindful of the differentials in mass (tonnage) and force (speed). Then therefore, they will give way to a crossing sailing vessel if that sailing vessel gives an additional indication of its heading by for example flashing the sails with a strong light, but equally, in the same way that yachtsmen are not familiar (hands on experience) with the manoeverability of a big ship under way and making way through the water, so a watchkeeper on a big ship does not have a reality of what it is like from a yachtsmans point of view.

Therefore there has to be compromise.

The compromise is that provision is made in "The Rules" if you like, for the watchkeeper, on detecting that a close quarters situation is developing, for him to make AMPLE PROVISION in GOOD TIME to avoid this situation developing and worsening as a matter of PRUDENT SEAMANSHIP.

The recommendation has always been that an alteration of course to avoid a close quarters situation developing (which implies a real risk of collision) ought to be SIGNIFICANT.

This means that irrespective of either vessel being under sail does not, in the interests of prudent seamanship give the right to the sailing vessel to have right of way or for the big ship to stand on but for either party or both parties to take action iIN GOOD TIME and SIGNIFICANTLY to prevent real risk of collision inexhorably developing.

Therefore in practice and in principle, if a Merchant Vessel or any other large power driven vessel's watchkeeper (or Master if he is on the bridge) observes another vessel WHOSE BEARING IS NOT SIGNIFICANTLY ALTERING he has the duty to act IN GOOD TIME and SIGNIFICANTLY, which is the opposite of what appears to have happened in this case, in which the action was NEITHER IN GOOD TIME nor SIGNIFICANT, with the consequence that the last minute avoiding action side swiped the yacht.
Yesterday 23:48

I think that in the middle of this confused rant you are actually agreeing with me. It was the duty of the OOW of the Silver Yang to take action to avoid a colllision and he failed to do so. Glad we agree on that. The stuff about significant course alteration and in ample time is all dealt with in Rule 8.

I also agree with you that if Ella's Pink Lady did not take effective action to avoid a collision when it became obvious that the helmsman of the Silver Yang was not going to do so then she bears some of the blame.

However, Rule 18 is unambiguous and states that (other conditions not applying, which they didn't AFAIK) a power driven vessel shall stay out of the way of a sailing vessel. The fact that you have sailed with captains who ignore this rule is scary and plays to the prejudice many on here have against so-called 'professional' seamen. If you ever find yourself in this position again I suggest you fill out a CHIRP report.

Are you sure you aren't related to DAKA?

- W

 

[webcraft]

Am I . . .

Listen toad, don't start....
He is not correct and I have gone to great lengths to explain why.
What is in print and what the rules mean in terms of practical and prudent seamanship are different

You ARE DAKA!

The rules were carefully drafted so that people like you couldn't 'interpret' them in some way. They are a simple set of instructions, not a religious text that needs priests to interpret it.

You are spouting some very dangerous nonsense here - maybe I will fill out a CHIRP report myself.

- W

 

[VO5]

You ARE DAKA!

The rules were carefully drafted so that people like you couldn't 'interpret' them in some way. They are a simple set of instructions, not a religious text that needs priests such as yourself to interpret it.

You are spouting some very dangerous nonsense here - maybe I will fill out a CHIRP report myself.

- W

Do you know what Freighter / Tanker /RoRo / Bulk Carrier Deck Officers have as a common concept what a sailing vessel ought to be according to their frame of reference ?

I tell you it is funny and not funny..

It varies between a lifeboat with sails, right up to a four masted barque.

But all of them regard yachts as OBSTACLES.

I am not spouting nonsense ...you are...next you will be saying rules is rules like some shop steward of sailing I shouldn't wonder.

Get real.

Hedgehogs don't try to have the right of way on motorways, that's why so many get flattened.