Jane and I are helping to deliver a Gunfleet 58 to Southampton

I might have thought that in full cruising mode, water, fuel, life raft, desalinator, gen set, extra sails, tender etc the figure quoted, 34t (?) would be very close to the truth. I doubt many yachts actually on the water are that close to the manufacturers figures, of 31t, (unless you seriously race)

Quiddle

quote I have that on my boat, comprising the engine and a piece of rope. unquote

The difference is the piece of rope - on yachts that big it is simply too dangerous to leap off the deck onto the pontoon, its too high, or far. You need steps (or very athletic crew - which will not include the owner and his wife). I can see the value of the bow and stern thrusters (even on modern 40', high lopsided, yachts). If you cannot get into a marina (even for fuel) the yacht will never be sailed only by the owners - they would always need crew (which is only one reason larger yachts don't move).

Jonathan
 
I've not been on a Gunfleet but have crawled all over a Discovery which I thought was very well thought out. However, if I was in the market for a million pound 50plus-footer (I'm not) I would still go for an Island Packet 485, because the overwhelming advantage of it's long keel is that it only draws 5ft instead of the 7-8ft of the others. I am biased though and these things are all personal preference, but no keel bolts or complicated electric lifting mechanism yet still having a shallow draft is a big plus to me.

The heeling angle of the Gunfleet in the YW video did strike me as high for a cruising boat, it's really not what you want sailing with the Mrs and/or family on long passages. Maybe this was for effect though, and they deliberately overcooked it.

Concerning stuff when you're liveaboard, I agree from experience it's a lot and I know we must have been way overweight when we set off. First time you go you take everything because you just don't know what you'll need. Now, though, we've learned a bit and thinned everything out. We're not liveaboard at the moment but should the fancy take us again in future it would be with the benefit of hindsight.

As an aside, having shown the big boat videos to my mrs I asked her if she'd like a bigger boat to go off cruising in assuming money was no object. She said no nice as they were and was quite adamant about it. For a couple she thinks 38-40ft is fine without having to resort to electric everything. Plus, with 4ft draft, we can still get in and out of marinas and skinny places, just like an AWB :)
 
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sailorman said:
wasnt this 58 built on commission as the owner wanted a lift keel & another ( now defunct ) builder wasnt interested, & Gunfleet said yes Sir we can do that, pls sign here
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Yes I think I remember that, although talking to both builders one of the two went much further than the other was able to offer, If I remember correctly he was already a customer of the other. I guess they weren't used to building that kind of keel arrangement, so it shows a bit. Be interesting to see how the Discovery 48 (Distant Shores III) turns out, since they do have the necessary experience/knowledge.

I remember doing the 2014 RTIR watching RM and his crew sailing "Flightdeck", nice looking boat I thought, however we didn't have any trouble matching him down to the needles, then he went way out and we stayed inshore, there was zero wind south of the island that year and so not great for us heavy cruisers, we passed him again when he came back inshore just past St Cats at which point he retired, I have to say we had the bimini up, it was very pleasant drifting along, once back in the Solent there was plenty of wind for a nice bash back to Cowes.
 
>Chuck Paine designs to his "20-20" rule. Under full sail you are heeled to 20o in 20kt of wind.

Yes we looked at buying a Bowman and that figure was quoted. We decided against it because it is a mediun displacement boat and we wanted heavy displacement steel boat, on the basis that if you sail for long enough you will hit something or something will hit you. We were hit twice once at anchor so we don't what it was and once by a heavy wood pirogue at full speed that hit our port beam because he couldn't get the outboard out of gear. A GRP boat would have been holed and furniture inside the damaged we just had chipped paint which I repainted.

If you look at heeling lightweight boats heel most, medium displacement are 20/20 as you said and heavy displacement less than that, as I said ours was 10/20.
 
Neeves said:
The difference is the piece of rope - on yachts that big it is simply too dangerous to leap off the deck onto the pontoon, its too high, or far. You need steps (or very athletic crew - which will not include the owner and his wife). I can see the value of the bow and stern thrusters (even on modern 40', high lopsided, yachts). If you cannot get into a marina (even for fuel) the yacht will never be sailed only by the owners - they would always need crew (which is only one reason larger yachts don't move).

Jonathan
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Hmm, the rope thing has worked for me on 50'+ boats I've sailed. If the boat's alongside the pontoon how it is held there doesn't seem to bear on access issues.
 
>Of course, he now could have gone to Oyster who offer their 565 with a shoal lifting keel as an option!

Thanks I didn't know that, I wonder if it has the same heeling problem as the Gunfleet.
 
KellysEye said:
>Depends what you want out of your sailing but I'd consider 10 degrees heel in 20 knots wind (true?) as rather underpowered

A ketch has three sails so the main mast is much smaller than a similar sized sloop so you get much less heel for any wind speed. Another thing it does in a strong gust it heels but starts to move back upright even though the gust is still there.

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If the main mast is much smaller and the boom is shorter to accommodate the mizzen then you would seem to be underpowered. On a performance yacht you would expect to heal as described above and with a deep keel you would make good performance to windward. With your boat you would never have the same windward performance as a similar sized deep keel sloop. You might only be leaning 10 degrees but you wont be going to windward very well. At least with the Gunfleet he has the option to reef. You cant add sail so you dont have the option to improve performance.
Our ketch has a mast about 1metre lower than the sloop version and a shorter boom. We are disadvantaged in light winds to windward due to the lack of sail area when compared to the sloop. As soon as the wind picks up it makes little difference. We could easily sail with the same angle of dangle as the Gunfleet in 20knots and make good performance to windward since we are a deep fin keel. We have never felt disadvantaged by our draft as much as we would do if we couldnt sail well.
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Its an interesting contradiction but we go sailing to be out on the water and sometimes to go from A to B. Most new yachts are sold for their performance capabilities which implies, you go fast and actually then spend less time sailing. If you want to go from A to B really fast, buy a MoBo.

We meet lots of circumnavigators who have been doing so for years, one couple were half way round and had reached Australia after 12 years. There is also a compromise of spending weeks at 20 degrees or sightly longer at 10 degrees.

Having said that its nice to average 10 knots over 100nm. And doing it flat

Each to their own. There is no right and wrong.

Jonathan
 
>If the main mast is much smaller and the boom is shorter to accommodate the mizzen then you would seem to be underpowered. On a performance yacht you would expect to heal as described above and with a deep keel you would make good performance to windward.

The boom is the normal size and add the mizzen sail area to the main in sail area and the sum is the size of what a same size sloop would be. Our windward perfomance was no different from a same size sloop we often sailed close to them where charter boats are.
 
KellysEye said:
>If the main mast is much smaller and the boom is shorter to accommodate the mizzen then you would seem to be underpowered. On a performance yacht you would expect to heal as described above and with a deep keel you would make good performance to windward.

The boom is the normal size and add the mizzen sail area to the main in sail area and the sum is the size of what a same size sloop would be. Our windward perfomance was no different from a same size sloop we often sailed close to them where charter boats are.
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You may have the same sail area but the ketch rig efficiency going to windward is not the same as a sloop. Closer than 60degrees to the wind the mizzen has little real benefit in terms of windward performance. There is no slot effect like there is with a main and genoa. You may have the sail area but its in the wrong place. Off the wind its a different issue. The ketch will out perform the sloop version regularly.
We dont bother setting our mizzen if we are closer than 60 deg to windward. Our yacht is performance orientated with a relatively tall rig and 7ft2" draft. We regularly out perform similar sized sloops to windward. The fin keel draft definately makes a huge difference to pointing ability and leeway.
 
We removed the mizzen and gained a huge aft deck. The mizzen was useless in less than 60 degrees. At more than 110 degrees it produces such a big turning effect that you need extra rudder which in turn slows you down. At more than 160 degrees it wind shadows the main. It was however great for attaching stuff to and ketches look gorgeous.

It's vaguely interesting that after designing most Colvic Watson's as ketches, the naval architects responsible for the designs drew the very last incarnation of the largest - our design - as a bermudan sloop. It was a later owner that stuck a mizzen on. There's nothing wrong with a slower boat, you get more time sailing and you usually see families with kids on slower boats. In any case most families only care about two things - the fun factor and the comfort factor at anchor/in a marina. Gentlemen may not go to windward but families sure don't, well not twice anyway.
 
Colvic Watson said:
We removed the mizzen and gained a huge aft deck. The mizzen was useless in less than 60 degrees. At more than 110 degrees it produces such a big turning effect that you need extra rudder which in turn slows you down. At more than 160 degrees it wind shadows the main. It was however great for attaching stuff to and ketches look gorgeous.

It's vaguely interesting that after designing most Colvic Watson's as ketches, the naval architects responsible for the designs drew the very last incarnation of the largest - our design - as a bermudan sloop. It was a later owner that stuck a mizzen on. There's nothing wrong with a slower boat, you get more time sailing and you usually see families with kids on slower boats. In any case most families only care about two things - the fun factor and the comfort factor at anchor/in a marina. Gentlemen may not go to windward but families sure don't, well not twice anyway.
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Windward is all relative, some are on a bread reach others hard on the wind ( + motor ) in the same conditions
 
Colvic Watson said:
We removed the mizzen and gained a huge aft deck. The mizzen was useless in less than 60 degrees. At more than 110 degrees it produces such a big turning effect that you need extra rudder which in turn slows you down. At more than 160 degrees it wind shadows the main. It was however great for attaching stuff to and ketches look gorgeous.

It's vaguely interesting that after designing most Colvic Watson's as ketches, the naval architects responsible for the designs drew the very last incarnation of the largest - our design - as a bermudan sloop. It was a later owner that stuck a mizzen on. There's nothing wrong with a slower boat, you get more time sailing and you usually see families with kids on slower boats. In any case most families only care about two things - the fun factor and the comfort factor at anchor/in a marina. Gentlemen may not go to windward but families sure don't, well not twice anyway.
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I guess ketches differ. We just sailed from Martinique to Bonaire, some 465nm. First 24 hours we had full main, full genoa and mizzen. We were broach reaching. We did 175nm in the first 24 hours. All very relaxed and no fuss with just my and wife onboard. We realised we were going to arrive in Bonaire in the dark so we dropped the main and poled out the genoa as we were almost dead downwind at 175degs as the wind came around more to the east. We kept the mizzen up and had a very nice comfortable sail using the Windpilot the whole trip.
We wouldn't be without a mizzen mast. In light winds it allows us to set a mizzen staysail. We set it without the mizzen so normally reach with full genoa, main and mizzen staysail. Gives us lots of sail area for light wind reaching.
 
sailorman said:
Windward is all relative, some are on a bread reach others hard on the wind ( + motor ) in the same conditions
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Windward isn't that relative, I mean I call windward less than 50 degrees and that's not a broad reach!

geem said:
I guess ketches differ. We just sailed from Martinique to Bonaire, some 465nm. First 24 hours we had full main, full genoa and mizzen. We were broach reaching. We did 175nm in the first 24 hours. All very relaxed and no fuss with just my and wife onboard. We realised we were going to arrive in Bonaire in the dark so we dropped the main and poled out the genoa as we were almost dead downwind at 175degs as the wind came around more to the east. We kept the mizzen up and had a very nice comfortable sail using the Windpilot the whole trip.
We wouldn't be without a mizzen mast. In light winds it allows us to set a mizzen staysail. We set it without the mizzen so normally reach with full genoa, main and mizzen staysail. Gives us lots of sail area for light wind reaching.
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Mizzen and Genoa is a great rig when you aren't in any kind of hurry, nicely balanced and easy to handle. But we used the mizzen once last year and twice the year before, we're not blue water sailors, we sail the UK coast from Suffolk to Dorset, and only log maybe 800 or 900 miles a year.
 
Colvic Watson said:
Windward isn't that relative, I mean I call windward less than 50 degrees and that's not a broad reach!



Mizzen and Genoa is a great rig when you aren't in any kind of hurry, nicely balanced and easy to handle. But we used the mizzen once last year and twice the year before, we're not blue water sailors, we sail the UK coast from Suffolk to Dorset, and only log maybe 800 or 900 miles a year.
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Thats sub 30 to me, 50 is cruising chute time :)
 
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