Iveco 8361srm38

[5teve]

Hi Guy

long time reader - first time poster - based in Western Australia. Thank you for all the info posted.. its been very helpful so far!

I am currently looking for a larger boat (currently have a 6m aluminium) and have my eye on a 33ft shaft drive boat with a single Iveco 8361srm38 from what I can gather.

I spoke to the owner briefly who advised the engine had done 5000 hours.... this is where it gets interesting....

The hull was built in 2002 - the engine was a recon unit with the recon carried out by a local iveco specialist and the hours he is quoting is from new - so the 5000 hours is new > recon > today. the owner isnt too sure but he things the engine was recon at about 4000 hours and apparently came out of a bus (block only maybe? but not sure on why it would come out of a bus!) the reconditioner still have these available 2nd hand and recon

I'm going to try and speak to the re-conditioner in the near future to see what they class as reconditioned. The engine in the one picture available looks almost new and the engine bay / room looks to be very clean.

Does anyone have any info on these engines - I have searched high and low and there isnt much around - i have gathered that the 8361 has been around for a long time and improved over time, I am assuming the engine in this is of a late 90's early 2000 vintage rather than the old smokey and somewhat more thirsty 80's version?

Is 5000 hours a lot of hours for this kind of motor - its a huge lump (8.1l) compared the volvo / yanmar / cummins of similar rating so assume its going to be fairly unstressed in this application?

Any other useful info you could throw my was would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Steve

 

[Latestarter1]

Hi Guy

long time reader - first time poster - based in Western Australia. Thank you for all the info posted.. its been very helpful so far!

I am currently looking for a larger boat (currently have a 6m aluminium) and have my eye on a 33ft shaft drive boat with a single Iveco 8361srm38 from what I can gather.

I spoke to the owner briefly who advised the engine had done 5000 hours.... this is where it gets interesting....

The hull was built in 2002 - the engine was a recon unit with the recon carried out by a local iveco specialist and the hours he is quoting is from new - so the 5000 hours is new > recon > today. the owner isnt too sure but he things the engine was recon at about 4000 hours and apparently came out of a bus (block only maybe? but not sure on why it would come out of a bus!) the reconditioner still have these available 2nd hand and recon

I'm going to try and speak to the re-conditioner in the near future to see what they class as reconditioned. The engine in the one picture available looks almost new and the engine bay / room looks to be very clean.

Does anyone have any info on these engines - I have searched high and low and there isnt much around - i have gathered that the 8361 has been around for a long time and improved over time, I am assuming the engine in this is of a late 90's early 2000 vintage rather than the old smokey and somewhat more thirsty 80's version?

Is 5000 hours a lot of hours for this kind of motor - its a huge lump (8.1l) compared the volvo / yanmar / cummins of similar rating so assume its going to be fairly unstressed in this application?

Any other useful info you could throw my was would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Steve

Steve,

A Red Devil!, actually one of the better Red Devil's.........

8361 has a good reputation, well marinised engine with better far better turbomachinery than say 80XX series popular in commercial marine applications both here and in Ireland, correctly installed and dependent on marine rating 260 400 hp ish easily capable of 15,000 hours plus to mid life overhaul. As to size you cannot compare with Yanmar LY Series of equivalent power as this is a true 3,000 hour per annum rating.

To answer your question regarding bus connection 8361 was popular bus engine in Europe and whilst majority of the iconic London Routemaster buses were re-powered with Cummins C Series in later life Iveco and Scania picked up around 50 apiece with 8361 and DSC9 and other than operators grizzling about parts costs and poor availability they seemed to stand up just as well as Cummins and Scania in bus service.

 

[5teve]

Thanks LS1

Info is much appreciated and good to know these were a good heavy duty engine that has at least 10000 good hours left in it even if the overhaul was minimal. I'm guessing the engine is probably the last thing I need to worry about unless the maintenance isnt there? - It certainly looks well looked after.

Having spoken to the dealer who supplied these, he is going to try and find some history on this engine - he has new and recon and 2nd hand ones available off the floor and also has spares readily available at 'reasonable prices' ( his words!) He said, contradicting the owner, that these were a full recon of the marinised version, no prior bus history with this particular engine, and they do no conversions of any sort .. so maybe the owner had his info muddled up. Dealer also offers full engine appraisals prior to buying the boat if required.

How is the economy on these things and items like startup smoke etc (obviously down to correct maintenance etc)

Now just have to go look at the boat - which was locally built and I can also find very little info about .. I like obscure stuff.. makes me feel special

Steve

 

[Jim@sea]

I bought a 1986 boat in France which had an Iveco/Aifo engine and brought it back to the UK. I found that it was virtually impossible to get some engine parts (and for 25 years I had a garage so you could say that I was a professional parts buyer) When changing the Alternator Belt I wanted to put a new cam belt roller on and no matter where I tried I could not get one which was the same, non of them would have fitted as the casting was different, obviously I ordered one from an Iveco/Aifo dealer and it was different, one from an Industrial Engine (same cc) was the same as the first, then having identified which Truck/Van they fitted this engine into, I had one from there, and all three were identical, but different to the one that was fitted to my boat.
The roller bearing was obviously the original as it had the red overspray on one side. It was still working perfectly despite being 25 years old.
The lack of engine spares for this boat was the main reason I sold it.
I will never again buy an old boat where engine spares are difficult to get hold of as when something fails you are either faced with having the boat out of commission for weeks while you try and find parts or you rip the engine out and replace it with a new one.

 

[5teve]

Thanks Jim for the other perspective.. and one I have considered greatly after reading on here..

Most things are hard to source in Perth (Australia) being so remote.. but interestingly this motor is in a 2002 boat so not too old- and probably was from the very late 90's or 2000 when new before being reconditioned - the iveco specialist that reconned the engine back then.. is still going and one of the iveco marine dealers here and knows them well, knows this boat and engine .. so i'm fairly comfortable with the support side. He has a number of 2nd hand units readily available and fully reconditioned ones too.

Our current boat has a 140hp tohatsu.. and they are hard work to get spares too (not that they go wrong very often), so I understand what you mean, instead I just buy all service items ect from the states in quantity..

Still we will go have a look and then make our decisions based on that and probably a full engine appraisal. I'm also trying hard to find out about the hull and weight (we have 35 footers at 5ton and 35 footer local built boats at over 12 tons) .. but zero info there too! Local boat builder who has collapsed a few times since this was built.. and only one other available for sale too..

I'd still be interested to hear about the economy and smokiness on startup..

Steve

 

[Jim@sea]

I'd still be interested to hear about the economy and smokiness on startup..

Steve

Forget worrying about the economy. Worry about the engine. I once employed an excellent mechanic who when he did a service would do a Compression Test and 30 years later with every boat I buy I always do one, although as I no longer have a compression tester I now get a Marine Engineer to do one for me. Even if you have the boat surveyed the surveyor does not do a compression test.
You also need to remember that many boat builders dont fit the latest engines and sometimes fit second hand ones which have been reconditioned. (as I found out when in 1980 I bought a brand new boat which had been fitted with a pair of 80hp Ford Engines I knew having a garage that if I went to a Ford Dealer for a brand new engine they were Black. And if I went for a reconditioned one they were blue.
One of the supposedly new engines would not start, I even had my mechanic try. I was not there when the boatyard got it going but when I returned it was evident that the cylinder head had been removed. These "new" engines were painted "White" the colour of the engine supplier, but taking the head off had chipped the white paint off to reveal the colour of the blue which was normally used by the Ford Engine Re-Conditioner. Anyway we set off on the "Brand New " boats first trip, 120 miles later the gearbox was spewing oil out of a seal and they had to come out to replace the gearbox. Needless to say I rejected the boat and got my money back. By taking the engine number I established that the engine had been made 8 years before and the other one was 6 years old.
So all I am saying is that just because the engine was put in your boat in 2002 doesn't mean that it was new then.
And if I was buying the boat I would want a Compression Test before purchase.

PS. Smokyness on startup. As I understand it Black Smoke is settings or injectors. Blue Smoke is wear. (another reason to have a compression test)

 

[Latestarter1]

Forget worrying about the economy. Worry about the engine. I once employed an excellent mechanic who when he did a service would do a Compression Test and 30 years later with every boat I buy I always do one, although as I no longer have a compression tester I now get a Marine Engineer to do one for me. Even if you have the boat surveyed the surveyor does not do a compression test.
You also need to remember that many boat builders dont fit the latest engines and sometimes fit second hand ones which have been reconditioned. (as I found out when in 1980 I bought a brand new boat which had been fitted with a pair of 80hp Ford Engines I knew having a garage that if I went to a Ford Dealer for a brand new engine they were Black. And if I went for a reconditioned one they were blue.
One of the supposedly new engines would not start, I even had my mechanic try. I was not there when the boatyard got it going but when I returned it was evident that the cylinder head had been removed. These "new" engines were painted "White" the colour of the engine supplier, but taking the head off had chipped the white paint off to reveal the colour of the blue which was normally used by the Ford Engine Re-Conditioner. Anyway we set off on the "Brand New " boats first trip, 120 miles later the gearbox was spewing oil out of a seal and they had to come out to replace the gearbox. Needless to say I rejected the boat and got my money back. By taking the engine number I established that the engine had been made 8 years before and the other one was 6 years old.
So all I am saying is that just because the engine was put in your boat in 2002 doesn't mean that it was new then.
And if I was buying the boat I would want a Compression Test before purchase.

PS. Smokyness on startup. As I understand it Black Smoke is settings or injectors. Blue Smoke is wear. (another reason to have a compression test)

Sorry Jim but all this belongs to another era.

IDI diesel engines were compression critical as the pre combustion chamber design resulted in significant thermal losses and prompt start up required heater plugs or Thermostart.

A D.I. diesel engines is relatively compression insensitive as compression ratio is dramatically lower than IDI typically 15/17:1 versus 20/23:1. A typical Mid Range D.I engine in truck operation with cylinder displacement of 1 to 1.5 liters per cylinder will only see a small drop maybe 20 psi from run in out to over 1 million kilometers unless there is damage to the cylinder which is not normal wear.

Surveyors in the U.S pad out their bills by doing compression testing as this is a nation of gasoline heads so they have to be excused, however pulling injectors without a good level of OEM knowledge can lead to all sorts of problems, leaking copper injector sleeves or wrong thickness washers, I have seen it all.

The ONLY way to do an accurate diesel engine health test is a 'blow by test' but even more simple is the 'low earth orbit test' simply remove the oil filler cap, if crankcase pressure is sufficient to blow it into low earth orbit the engine needs to be pulled, no gauges required!

The majority of turbocharged mechanical marine diesel engines white smoke to a greater or lesser degree as they have lower compression ratio than equivalent N/A motor, also higher rating means that fuel pump has increased fueling level often injector flow is not 100% optimised which results in naturally delayed timing leading to white smoke, raw water lube oil cooling can result in low piston crown temperatures and finally SWAC charge air cooling can all do their part in creating significant white smoke often seen on high rated Detroit Diesel, Ford Sabre and older Volvo engines.

Keeping thread on track, Iveco 8361 marine engine was not badly optimised and whilst it will smoke a bit on start up you will not be enveloping everybody in huge clouds of Sabre smoke. As to fuel consumption no better or worse than equivalent mechanical Cummins, Scania or Volvo Penta on a typical propeller law curve.

Just look carefully at the nasty mid mount turbo arrangement and look for signs of corrosion inside the riser which can dump seawater into the engine in a trice.

 

[MapisM]

even more simple is the 'low earth orbit test' simply remove the oil filler cap, if crankcase pressure is sufficient to blow it into low earth orbit the engine needs to be pulled, no gauges required!

LOL, that almost made me spill my coffee.
I must remember to NEVER remove the oil filler caps in my (by now 20yo) Cats. I don't want to know.....

 

[5teve]

Thanks for the discussion and chuckles

OK we have been to see the boat - nice boat - needs a bit of a tidy and we are still to see if the forward cabin is big enough - no standing room unless the bed infill is taken out as they crammed a 2 single bunk cabin next to the forward berth.

Motor is a BIG lump.. started first flick - I suspect it had been idling earlier in the day as he had cleaned the boat for our viewing - it was smokey - grey smoke and fairly smelly - he idled it / revved to around 1800 unloaded - smoke was fairly consistent. It certainly didnt get up to temperature though.. so dont know if that is normal.

He mentioned the riser had been replaced as the old one was aluminium - he was a bit vague about it (has been about a lot of stuff) .. but replaced for the cast one. there seems to be a gearbox oil leak - or maybe just a messy oil change. nothing too big. Could also be the shaft seal as that seems pressurized.

As im new to marine diesels I took some pictures - your feedback would be appreciated. - actual engine hours are 5300 - gauges we believe were moved from the original install to this one.

Slightly off topic but there is another boat the same model - different layout (single larger cabin rather than 2 cabins) with a volvo tamd71b - now its a 2000 manufactured boat - which makes me suspect that it was a recon motor then - it has since be recon'ed again 3 years ago. out of the 2 motors - which would be the 'go' - ignoring parts availability as the iveco's are apparently easy in Perth??!

Pictures of Iveco here.. https://goo.gl/photos/QDY4d94XoV9ntAjP8

Thanks

Steve

 

[5teve]

Oh and by the way..

I don't believe in the old saying - if you have nothing nice to say - don't say it at all.. so if its bad new.. please let me know!

Steve

 

[5teve]

Hi Guys

Has anyone got any input into this iveco vs volvo? I'm currently on the fence between the 2 boats favouring the iveco for a reason I cannot fathom (i like unusual stuff.. but also the dealer seems very good to deal with) - but the grey smoke / harsh diesel smell on startup did not inspire me (nor the oil in the bilge, or the rusty pullys / corroded engine frame) The boat had a much better original fitout than the volvo, it just appears to have been looked after a little less. plus the volvo didnt smoke in the slightest.. (but was warm on startup - warm being relative as its 30degC + here currently

I just don't want to waste my money surveying a boat / engine if its already looking like there are $$'s worth of problems. I could of course do a low ball offer.. based on the hours but i'm not sure the seller would go for that.. I do think that he will struggle to sell it with those kind of hours on it tho. I'm going to push for a second viewing but as the owner works away every other week its hard to sync with him.

Thanks in advance

Steve

 

[Jim@sea]

I would go for the Volvo. Spare parts are available everywhere. Also I would have though that a boat with an Iveco engine would not be worth as much when you come to sell.
(as I found out when I was selling my boat with an Iveco engine)

 

[5teve]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your input.. a very valid point..

There are a good number of the marine Iveco's for sale and in service in Western Australia, mainly due to a good iveco dealer and a huge number of Iveco trucks running around here (most garbage trucks are Iveco as are a good number of road trains.) I guess good support and parts availability helps.

From most people I speak to about Volvo here, most groan about pricing, dealer attitude, service levels etc. I think you are right that Volvo has managed to become almost the default engine if you are buying a boat - but I don't hear much nice stuff said.

That said 5300 hours with a rebuild about 4000 hours for the Iveco vs 1350 ish hours on the volvo with a rebuild 450 hours ago.. the volvo from the 'hours' point of view (however warped) is more saleable.

I'm going to try and get a second view of the Iveco and discuss the oil leaks and see if I can get a history.. apparently there is plenty of paperwork.

Steve

 

[bambie]

I have one 320hp no problems as far as reliability goes, blows smoke when starting but clears up when running, approx 50 litres an hour for 9.5t boat cruise at 15-17 flat out 20, very simple engine yours had a bit more rust around the pulleys but would suspect that's just from leaking sea water hoses over time, hours on mine not correct as it says 1700 but you never know, starts first time every time keep good oil and fuel up to it and you should be fine, I'm in Perth also and have dealt with THT they are good and will get what you need, end of the day its still just a diesel with different cooling system. good luck there is plenty of good buys around at the moment, should get a nice one for fair price. might see you at Rotto in the new boat

Cheers
Glenn