It's MUCH more dangerous than I had previously assessed

[oldbilbo]

The four experienced and very active sailors I know ( knew ? ) who have died - over 45 years' sailing - did so in their own beds. Oh, one died aboard his boat..... secured alongside in the marina. Time up....

Statistically, there's nothing there to frighten the horses. If you want to go sailing, just do it.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Headline in RNLI Advert. "1 in 8 sailors fall overboard"

Ah, I've never fallen off a boat but have fallen on to one two or three times. Should my curious inability to get over the guardwires in the opposite direction be included as a positive or a negative in those stats?

 

[aquaplane]

I have fallen off a yacht twice, both times within a yard of a jetty, in fact one time I got off the yacht and got pulled in off a wet jetty, the other time Claymore is making sure I don't forget.

I have ended up very wet from the dingy once, but that was scrubbing the waterline beard and getting in a twist.

Wearing a LJ returning from the pub is a good idea we follow even though the heightened awareness of the hazards means that I'm more careful and hang on harder.

 

[oldbilbo]

Interestingly, several of the new-generation 'Jester' long-distance singlehanders now wear their expensive Spinlock LJs full-time. On inquiry, it seems 'cos there is concern that their racy 2m keels might suddenly fall off. That would be an inconvenience.

Most of the rest are rather more concerned that the pee-bottle/bucket might get kicked over in the night....

 

[Dave100456]

Sailboarders. and one reported falling in 216 times, actually less than me in the short time I had a sailboard.

Robin, Can you let me know the source of your info ie the 216 incidents by one person?

Surely no responsible safety organisation would include sailboarders in their "person overboard statistics" or would they???

I recall Dave Allen's joke about 25% of road accidents being caused by drunks...... therefore 75% are caused by people who are sober!!!!

That's may be why he always had the whiskey close to hand!

 

[nick55]

RNLI quote the source of this alarming statistic as "audience profiling research (2015)". I suspect that "2015" relates to the publication of the research which seems to have been carried out by means of a survey between Oct 9th and Nov 9th last year. The research was commissioned by RNLI in conjunction with RYA and MCA and carried out by a company called Substance.

Information about the survey can be found at http://rnliyachting.substance.net/

Although the survey is closed and cannot be accessed online, it is still possible to download a pdf copy of the survey at http://rnliyachting.substance.net/sites/rnliyachting.substance.net/files/survey/index.pdf

The survey is very comprehensive and generally well thought through and should provide some very interesting and worthwhile statistics, however the 1 in 8 sailors going overboard from a yacht is not one of them. It is flawed by the way the questions are asked.

Section A is about "Your YACHTING participation" (my capitals), implying it is only concerned with people sailing on yachts. However, question 10 is "In which class of vessel did you sail on your last trip and in which did you sail most often in the last 12 months?". The first multiple choice response is "Small sailing boat (eg dinghy, multihull, etc)". Now, in my book, this does not qualify as a "yacht"!

Section C is concerned with "Risk attitudes" and it is here that the overboard question sits. Question 28 is "Please indicate whether any of the following occurrences have happened to you" and the first on the list is "Gone overboard". It doesn't specify that it must be from a yacht, or connected with sailing a yacht (eg from a pontoon or when going ashore in a dinghy).

I've been sailing for a few years, mainly on yachts and, touch wood, have not yet been overboard. Last year I did do a week's dinghy sailing course and went in the water at least a dozen times a day. Had I been answering this survey I think I might well have answered "yes" to the question have you ever been overboard? and I suspect many actual respondents may have done the same.

It seems a pity that such good work is potentially spoiled by someone keen to create a marketing coup with a dramatic headline.

 

[nick55]

RNLI quote the source of this alarming statistic as "audience profiling research (2015)". I suspect that "2015" relates to the publication of the research which seems to have been carried out by means of a survey between Oct 9th and Nov 9th last year. The research was commissioned by RNLI in conjunction with RYA and MCA and carried out by a company called Substance.

Information about the survey can be found at http://rnliyachting.substance.net/

Although the survey is closed and cannot be accessed online, it is still possible to download a pdf copy of the survey at http://rnliyachting.substance.net/sites/rnliyachting.substance.net/files/survey/index.pdf

The survey is very comprehensive and generally well thought through and should provide some very interesting and worthwhile statistics, however the 1 in 8 sailors going overboard from a yacht is not one of them. It is flawed by the way the questions are asked.

Section A is about "Your YACHTING participation" (my capitals), implying it is only concerned with people sailing on yachts. However, question 10 is "In which class of vessel did you sail on your last trip and in which did you sail most often in the last 12 months?". The first multiple choice response is "Small sailing boat (eg dinghy, multihull, etc)". Now, in my book, this does not qualify as a "yacht"!

Section C is concerned with "Risk attitudes" and it is here that the overboard question sits. Question 28 is "Please indicate whether any of the following occurrences have happened to you" and the first on the list is "Gone overboard". It doesn't specify that it must be from a yacht, or connected with sailing a yacht (eg from a pontoon or when going ashore in a dingy).

I've been sailing for a few years, mainly on yachts and, touch wood, have not yet been overboard. Last year I did do a week's dinghy sailing course and went in the water at least a dozen times a day. Had I been answering this survey I think I might well have answered "yes" to the question have you ever been overboard? and I suspect many actual respondents may have done the same.

It seems a pity that such good work is potentially spoiled by someone keen to create a marketing coup with a dramatic headline.

 

[LadyInBed]

I once walked backwards and fell off a pontoon, does that count?
(Paying out flat hose, hose was longer than pontoon)

 

[Robin]

Robin, Can you let me know the source of your info ie the 216 incidents by one person?

Surely no responsible safety organisation would include sailboarders in their "person overboard statistics" or would they???

I recall Dave Allen's joke about 25% of road accidents being caused by drunks...... therefore 75% are caused by people who are sober!!!!

That's may be why he always had the whiskey close to hand!

12% of 4996 = 216. So maybe one person falling overboard 216 times skewed the statistics. Joke fell flat I guess, sorry. Lies damn lies and statistics....

 

[Trop Cher]

OR ... 7 in 8 don't.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Source: RNLI audience profiling research (2015). The RNLI commissioned independent research into the attitudes to safety and risk of UK yacht sailors. A total of 4,996 sailors responded to a survey run by the study team. When asked about their experience of safety incidents, 12% said that they had gone overboard while sailing a yacht.

Add to that -

1. Those who went over and didn't survive
2. Those who fell in while climbing in or out of their dinghy
3. Those who fell in - in a marina berth

Just as a matter of interest, can your boarding ladder be lowered by you when you're in the water?

 

[chrishelen]

I suppose they have to come up with some figure so they can justify zooming about on their fast ribs. Smiley icon.

 

[Stemar]

Add to that -

Just as a matter of interest, can your boarding ladder be lowered by you when you're in the water?

Very good point.

The one time I went in (Tom & Jerry moment getting from dinghy to boat) I couldn't. I needed a knife, which was in my trouser pocket, but I was wearing my oilies.

Fortunately, the water was warm and no. 2 son was on board to give a hand, so it's something to joke about. Solo, in cold water the story could have had a very different ending.

 

[Dave-Shafa]

I fell off my dinghy while painting the yacht. Ruined my mobile phone.
Moral leave you MOB phone ashore.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I fell off my dinghy while painting the yacht. Ruined my mobile phone.
Moral leave you MOB phone ashore.

New slogan, Mobile phone waterproof cases. Useless unless worn.

 

[jesterchallenger]

Interesting debate. I saw the ad banner and thought it sounded a bit ott, so clicked on it and took their quiz. On finishing it, I was politely thanked for taking part and then exhorted to wear a lifejacket. Didn't know lifejackets prevented you from falling overboard, so I've learned something new. I do wear a harness most of the time, but only don the lifejacket if I think there's a chance of an upside-down situation developing. I do have a PLB, but the chances of rescue before I die of hypothermia are pretty remote, but the thought of a last chance is reassuring. Oh, and the lifejacket is manual. Don't fancy getting stuck under the boat with an auto inflator. So if the boom gets me, I'm done for.
Last year 1713 road users were killed as a result of a road accident. I don't know what that means in terms of percentages, but using the road system strikes me as being much more dangerous than going sailing. So I don't think the 1 in 8 slogan is really doing the RNLI any favours.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Last year 1713 road users were killed as a result of a road accident.

Must have been a heck of a crash!

 

[Dave100456]

RNLI quote the source of this alarming statistic as "audience profiling research (2015)". I suspect that "2015" relates to the publication of the research which seems to have been carried out by means of a survey between Oct 9th and Nov 9th last year. The research was commissioned by RNLI in conjunction with RYA and MCA and carried out by a company called Substance.

Information about the survey can be found at http://rnliyachting.substance.net/

Although the survey is closed and cannot be accessed online, it is still possible to download a pdf copy of the survey at http://rnliyachting.substance.net/sites/rnliyachting.substance.net/files/survey/index.pdf

The survey is very comprehensive and generally well thought through and should provide some very interesting and worthwhile statistics, however the 1 in 8 sailors going overboard from a yacht is not one of them. It is flawed by the way the questions are asked.

Section A is about "Your YACHTING participation" (my capitals), implying it is only concerned with people sailing on yachts. However, question 10 is "In which class of vessel did you sail on your last trip and in which did you sail most often in the last 12 months?". The first multiple choice response is "Small sailing boat (eg dinghy, multihull, etc)". Now, in my book, this does not qualify as a "yacht"!

Section C is concerned with "Risk attitudes" and it is here that the overboard question sits. Question 28 is "Please indicate whether any of the following occurrences have happened to you" and the first on the list is "Gone overboard". It doesn't specify that it must be from a yacht, or connected with sailing a yacht (eg from a pontoon or when going ashore in a dinghy).

I've been sailing for a few years, mainly on yachts and, touch wood, have not yet been overboard. Last year I did do a week's dinghy sailing course and went in the water at least a dozen times a day. Had I been answering this survey I think I might well have answered "yes" to the question have you ever been overboard? and I suspect many actual respondents may have done the same.

It seems a pity that such good work is potentially spoiled by someone keen to create a marketing coup with a dramatic headline.

Nick
Thank you for posting such an informative and objective response; adding to the debate.
Cheers

 

[Dave100456]

Add to that -

1. Those who went over and didn't survive
2. Those who fell in while climbing in or out of their dinghy
3. Those who fell in - in a marina berth

Just as a matter of interest, can your boarding ladder be lowered by you when you're in the water?

Jim
I have great respect for your contribution to sailing.
However, why would you want to add real instances (from which we can all learn) when safety and or life was compromised i.e:

1. Those who went over and didn't survive
2. Those who fell in while climbing in or out of their dinghy
3. Those who fell in - in a marina berth

to the incidences quoted in the RNLI's survey report which may include sailors who went "overboard" in a voluntary manner?

It appears the RNLI survey is not just about UK yacht sailors as it states and includes those have gone "overboard" when approaching a beach in the tender or a sailing dinghy. Quoting these instances in RNLI stats serves no purpose in getting all sailors to act responsibly.

Risk is the likelihood of a hazard occurring and with quality data in our possession we can all make better judgements. All I ask is that the data the RNLI have to hand is shared in an open, objective manner.

 

[jimbaerselman]

However, why would you want to add real instances (from which we can all learn) when safety and or life was compromised i.e:

1. Those who went over and didn't survive
2. Those who fell in while climbing in or out of their dinghy
3. Those who fell in - in a marina berth

to the incidences quoted in the RNLI's survey report which may include sailors who went "overboard" in a voluntary manner?

I would agree that the RNLI data includes a fair bit of uncertaintly. But much reaction to the initial post identified the probability of over-reporting to get "headline" figures, ignoring the possibility of under-reporting.

Just taking my very limited connection with MOB situations over 50 years of cruising activities. I've been connected with three people, who were in turn connected with a person losing life as a result of MOB. In moderate numbers of conversations over the years within similar circles, I've only had similar connection with two MOB which were recovered. A tiny sample, but at the personal level, it suggests there's a significant proportion of cruising folk who go overboard and don't make it.

I'll accept that racing, when vessels are usually well covered by safety boats, procedures, and strong crews, are likely to have more "overboards" and a better proportion of rescues.

And, on two very separate occasions, I've been in a dinghy, commuting between boat and shore, when we've had call to haul people out of the water. Both cases they were hanging on to boats, with no means of climbing out, having slipped while climbing in/out of a dinghy. And I've faced a similar marina incident.

So I have this bee in my bonnet about bathing ladders, an essential safety tool, which should be fitted to all cruising boats and should be lowerable from within the water.

I have a similar bee in my bonnet about hard things (booms, blocks, mainsheets) which whizz around a cruising cockpit below standing room. 'Elf and safety nightmare, especially if a novice may travel in such a boat.

"But they've always been like that . . ." is no excuse for the number of critical head injuries which occur, nor broken limbs trapped by inertia loaded sheets.

It's these (what seem to me) tolerated risks, which have simple solutions, which need to be brought under control.

Cue hate mail . . .