Italy - France: Offshore First Aid Kit - What is your experience

[MapisM]

I love when I countries decide that some vessels don't count as vessels under the rules. I'm curious what counts as a boat vs a vessel here?

You gotta love it also when someone mock a whole Country based on a wrong (or even invented!) translation.
In fact, the "for boats but not for vessels" bit simply doesn't exist, in the original version - and I have no idea of what whoever made that EN translation meant with that.

I would have expected comity to apply, at least until something went wrong.

It does, normally.
Now, I can only take prinex word for it, because I'm not familiar with Sanremo specifically.
But what he says the CG does there is totally unheard of regardless of the boat flag, and I even wonder if/how/on which basis they are entitled to do that.
In fact, as per the original table that I linked, the prescribed safety equipment depend on how far offshore the boat is used.
And up to 300m from the coast (a segment whose rationale is mostly meant for rental paddle boats and the likes, but which actually applies to any boat cruising within that limit), nothing at all is mandatory.
And the first aid kit only becomes mandatory when cruising at more than 12Nm from the coast.
There are also other bits BTW, like the EPIRB for instance (only > 50Nm), etc.
So, I struggle to understand what the CG want to see ìn a docked boat, without knowing (let alone be able to demonstrate!) how far offshore she is used?!?
I mean, it's perfectly legal to keep a boat docked 24/7, and use her just as a home.
Expecting to find on such boat a life raft, or an EPIRB, or even just life jackets would be laughable...

 

[requiem]

You gotta love it also when someone mock a whole Country based on a wrong (or even invented!) translation.
In fact, the "for boats but not for vessels" bit simply doesn't exist, in the original version - and I have no idea of what whoever made that EN translation meant with that.

I also wonder if it was a reference to terms like "pleasure craft" or "recreational vessel" to which the code may have assigned specific definitions, such as classifying them by size, and which a translation might have missed.

Part of why it stood out was because I remembered being surprised to read that in the UK some small vessels such as PWC and potentially other small pleasure craft still aren't considered subject to the COLREGS due to quirks of definition.

 

[ylop]

Part of why it stood out was because I remembered being surprised to read that in the UK some small vessels such as PWC and potentially other small pleasure craft still aren't considered subject to the COLREGS due to quirks of definition.

The loophole was closed over two years ago:

The Merchant Shipping (Watercraft) Order 2023

 

[Portofino]

My experience.
14 yrs Cote d Azur , 5 in Loano , Liguria cruising offshore to Corsica/ Elba etc U.K. red ensign.

Well aware of the comity situation…..in terms of we should adopt Fr and IT rules in terms of safety kit .We did .

The French have a very defined list of kit . Often found in the “ bloc “ nautical book , incidentally carrying this book is one of them .
It’s a bit ity bitty eg stuff like a signal mirror , balling bucket ,horn , wooden plugs all can be found in the Fr marina shops .
There was a first aid box green if I remember again all the shops sell them . €20-€30 quite basic .

Additionally we bought jelly fish sting cream and antihistamines + mozzi bite cream . The most used items btw

I had some antibiotics tabs and tracheostomy kit and GTN spray also for anaphylactic shock a kit of 1ml 1:1000 adrenaline ampules and IM needles administer. Stethoscope. These are not mandatory , just what I thought could come in handy …….and yes i am trained up before anyone asks .

Never bothered with CPR stuff as imho on a boat by the time you have reached that time line and the very low % success rate in a medical ( all the kit and training ) setting never mind a boat with Joe public phaffing on for the first time on a real person + having to keep up to date with the defibrillator pads , checking it , training on it , carrying a training ( spare) machine , getting the annual ticket etc etc ……just too much hassle and imho a death involving having carried it out , emergency services arriving to see chest pads , pulse oximetry kit etc on a body = a whole heap of awkward Q s by officialdom .

Quite happy with mouth to mouth and chest compressions only should the need have arisen.

Italy .
The boat was ex commercial owned by a hotel in Capri to collect punters mostly after hrs when they arrived often delayed at night after flying into Naples . Used for summer day trips too .
So it came with a lot of safety kit inc a orange first aid box with a white cross in a clearly identified galley cupboard.

Further exploring later and I found a second under a berth so I had 2 of these.

Plus the Fr + and my own additional kit .

No one ever asked to see any of this kit .
We have been boarded 7 times . 5 in France twice in Italy ,
Douanes in France = “ where are you from “ meaning home port and a doc check = insurance, reg cert and my licence .
We just top a file out on the cockpit table . Not VAT info .

Italy was Gurdia Finanza …..once a marina pontoon sweep whereby a minibus blue light and sirens arrives and a dozen officers sweep down the pontoon .
We were number 3 ( out of Approx 26 ) and by the time I got the file out and opened my mouth stood at the stern with the red ensign fluttering and stsrted a conversation with the officer ( not the foot soldiers ) .
“ You are British “ he just waved his guys away to focus on the Italian speaking boats …..various flags btw .

Turns out the commanders mum was an English teacher and he spent the first 12 yrs in Eng so had a excellent grasp of Eng the syntax everything.

So I asked him why some boats flew red ensigns but the occupants couldn’t speak a word of Eng only IT .
He told me they were owned by British banks under a leasing scheme thus fly a red .Perfectly above board .

Second time @ anchor they came and looked at the papers , reg doc etc .

Nobody’s gone through the safety gear .

A few thoughts
In France your flares need to be in date and if caught if out of date flares it carries a fine .
Also the ERIP need to be serviced and “in date “ as well as the life raft irrc every 5 yrs ?

In Italy the life raft service is every 2 yrs , the shops in Loano will arrange sending away and loan of a spare .

I did hide behind the red ensign rules with the life raft as it a new and came with a first 5 yrs needing nothing .
Nobody ever checked as Coast guard never bothered , Guardia Finanza…..it’s not there thingy ?

The only coast guard contact I had in Italy was a huge bollocking , then asked to take the papers to the office ( on the marina ) .
We were going out for the day in the Itama . I had recently serviced the engines and the boat had just had its annual lift .
About 1/ 2 way along the marina there rescue boat shot past , blue lights on a call .
It was a 30 fter with twin outdrives and KAD 300 s ( I had previously seen inside the open hatch while at the dock ) .
Off it went . Didn’t think much of it . Gets called out 1-2 times a week in the season .

When we got out the thing was high tailing it away in the same direction we were going .
About 2 miles ahead by the time my T + P s got up and got on the plane . Soon I was at 34 knots testing the motors at 2000 rpm looking at both screens scrolling through the data ….checking everything as you do after a service.

We soon overhauled the coast guard boat , overtaking it a safe distance and dropping in front . The sea state was about 1/2 M waves nothing really .

As it happened we arrived at the anchorage first well before the CG where the casualty event was unknowingly to us .
Looked like an injury and the vessel a small open day boat couldn’t start the engine ?

There were other peeps mostly little day boats attending.
No one was on deaths door from what I could make out . So I launched the tender after anchoring up .
Thinking if she doesn’t stop screaming I might nip over and suss out what’s going on?You know actually break open one of my 3 first aid kits .

By this time the CG boat maybe 10-15 mins later turned up and took the walking wounded off to rtn to Loano

Excitement over for day I thought?

When we got back to our berth a stones throw from the CG office and berths , a officer came charging out and in broken Eng went on in a raised voice , arms flapping about ( more than a French police man ) to accuse me of speeding …..something about overtaking them to arrive before them and just anchor up ….do nothing to assist .
Anyhow I was summoned into the office later with all the paperwork…. They were gabbling in Italian on the VHF btw Anyhow nothing became of it .I didn’t get to the bottom of the state of the casualty either so can’t access if I would have been any use getting there first .

 

[Skipper Felice]

My experience.
14 yrs Cote d Azur , 5 in Loano , Liguria cruising offshore to Corsica/ Elba etc U.K. red ensign.

Well aware of the comity situation…..in terms of we should adopt Fr and IT rules in terms of safety kit .We did .

The French have a very defined list of kit . Often found in the “ bloc “ nautical book , incidentally carrying this book is one of them .
It’s a bit ity bitty eg stuff like a signal mirror , balling bucket ,horn , wooden plugs all can be found in the Fr marina shops .
There was a first aid box green if I remember again all the shops sell them . €20-€30 quite basic .

Additionally we bought jelly fish sting cream and antihistamines + mozzi bite cream . The most used items btw

I had some antibiotics tabs and tracheostomy kit and GTN spray also for anaphylactic shock a kit of 1ml 1:1000 adrenaline ampules and IM needles administer. Stethoscope. These are not mandatory , just what I thought could come in handy …….and yes i am trained up before anyone asks .

Never bothered with CPR stuff as imho on a boat by the time you have reached that time line and the very low % success rate in a medical ( all the kit and training ) setting never mind a boat with Joe public phaffing on for the first time on a real person + having to keep up to date with the defibrillator pads , checking it , training on it , carrying a training ( spare) machine , getting the annual ticket etc etc ……just too much hassle and imho a death involving having carried it out , emergency services arriving to see chest pads , pulse oximetry kit etc on a body = a whole heap of awkward Q s by officialdom .

Quite happy with mouth to mouth and chest compressions only should the need have arisen.

Italy .
The boat was ex commercial owned by a hotel in Capri to collect punters mostly after hrs when they arrived often delayed at night after flying into Naples . Used for summer day trips too .
So it came with a lot of safety kit inc a orange first aid box with a white cross in a clearly identified galley cupboard.

Further exploring later and I found a second under a berth so I had 2 of these.

Plus the Fr + and my own additional kit .

No one ever asked to see any of this kit .
We have been boarded 7 times . 5 in France twice in Italy ,
Douanes in France = “ where are you from “ meaning home port and a doc check = insurance, reg cert and my licence .
We just top a file out on the cockpit table . Not VAT info .

Italy was Gurdia Finanza …..once a marina pontoon sweep whereby a minibus blue light and sirens arrives and a dozen officers sweep down the pontoon .
We were number 3 ( out of Approx 26 ) and by the time I got the file out and opened my mouth stood at the stern with the red ensign fluttering and stsrted a conversation with the officer ( not the foot soldiers ) .
“ You are British “ he just waved his guys away to focus on the Italian speaking boats …..various flags btw .

Turns out the commanders mum was an English teacher and he spent the first 12 yrs in Eng so had a excellent grasp of Eng the syntax everything.

So I asked him why some boats flew red ensigns but the occupants couldn’t speak a word of Eng only IT .
He told me they were owned by British banks under a leasing scheme thus fly a red .Perfectly above board .

Second time @ anchor they came and looked at the papers , reg doc etc .

Nobody’s gone through the safety gear .

A few thoughts
In France your flares need to be in date and if caught if out of date flares it carries a fine .
Also the ERIP need to be serviced and “in date “ as well as the life raft irrc every 5 yrs ?

In Italy the life raft service is every 2 yrs , the shops in Loano will arrange sending away and loan of a spare .

I did hide behind the red ensign rules with the life raft as it a new and came with a first 5 yrs needing nothing .
Nobody ever checked as Coast guard never bothered , Guardia Finanza…..it’s not there thingy ?

The only coast guard contact I had in Italy was a huge bollocking , then asked to take the papers to the office ( on the marina ) .
We were going out for the day in the Itama . I had recently serviced the engines and the boat had just had its annual lift .
About 1/ 2 way along the marina there rescue boat shot past , blue lights on a call .
It was a 30 fter with twin outdrives and KAD 300 s ( I had previously seen inside the open hatch while at the dock ) .
Off it went . Didn’t think much of it . Gets called out 1-2 times a week in the season .

When we got out the thing was high tailing it away in the same direction we were going .
About 2 miles ahead by the time my T + P s got up and got on the plane . Soon I was at 34 knots testing the motors at 2000 rpm looking at both screens scrolling through the data ….checking everything as you do after a service.

We soon overhauled the coast guard boat , overtaking it a safe distance and dropping in front . The sea state was about 1/2 M waves nothing really .

As it happened we arrived at the anchorage first well before the CG where the casualty event was unknowingly to us .
Looked like an injury and the vessel a small open day boat couldn’t start the engine ?

There were other peeps mostly little day boats attending.
No one was on deaths door from what I could make out . So I launched the tender after anchoring up .
Thinking if she doesn’t stop screaming I might nip over and suss out what’s going on?You know actually break open one of my 3 first aid kits .

By this time the CG boat maybe 10-15 mins later turned up and took the walking wounded off to rtn to Loano

Excitement over for day I thought?

When we got back to our berth a stones throw from the CG office and berths , a officer came charging out and in broken Eng went on in a raised voice , arms flapping about ( more than a French police man ) to accuse me of speeding …..something about overtaking them to arrive before them and just anchor up ….do nothing to assist .
Anyhow I was summoned into the office later with all the paperwork…. They were gabbling in Italian on the VHF btw Anyhow nothing became of it .I didn’t get to the bottom of the state of the casualty either so can’t access if I would have been any use getting there first .

Great information - out of real experience: Thank you.

 

[ylop]

Never bothered with CPR stuff as imho on a boat by the time you have reached that time line and the very low % success rate in a medical ( all the kit and training ) setting never mind a boat with Joe public phaffing on for the first time on a real person + having to keep up to date with the defibrillator pads , checking it , training on it , carrying a training ( spare) machine , getting the annual ticket etc etc ……just too much hassle and imho a death involving having carried it out , emergency services arriving to see chest pads , pulse oximetry kit etc on a body = a whole heap of awkward Q s by officialdom .

AEDs as available to the public actually require zero training (call 999 in the U.K. for a suspected cardiac arrest and the operator will direct you (or someone else) to the nearest public access box and provide the codes. No tickets at all never mind annual ones. Training devices are available (usually for far less cost than real ones) but no expectation that anyone other than formal training orgs have them. Pulse ox not essential for defibrillation. Can’t imagine any awkward Qs from using a defib. A tracheostomy might in the hands of someone who felt uncomfortable with the training requirements for defibrillation!

Quite happy with mouth to mouth and chest compressions only should the need have arisen.

But you said you wouldn’t bother with CPR stuff - CPR is chest compressions. Perhaps it’s a translation issue? Or perhaps it’s time for a refresher course?

 

[prinex]

> I struggle to understand what the CG want to see ìn a docked boat, without knowing (let alone be able to demonstrate!) how far offshore she is used?!?
I mean, it's perfectly legal to keep a boat docked 24/7, and use her just as a home.

The law says "a vessel over a certain lenght must have this and that on board". It does make a difference for certain items if you are 300m, 1M, 12M etc away but some of them are mandatory and thats it. Silly as it is but such is the book. And it can be solved with the 30 Euro kit from the shop so is not a big hassle.

The interactions with the Guardia Costiera and Guardia di Finanza can be everything from all good to a nightmare. So when they come to your boat and ask where are the flares, you show the flares no question asked, and if you dont have them / too old then quickly go to the shop buy the flares and they will go away.

Starting arguing with "I never go further away than 300 mt so I dont need them" - even if reasonable - will be perceived as "are you questioning my authority ? Do you imply I dont know the law ?" and next thing they will check everything they can, invite you to the capitaneria to show all the documents etc. Not worth the hassle.

Its a Italian thing but also in Greece - you dont discuss, you say yes you are right how can I amend this - they will be happy they showed who the top dog is, you go buy your flares / air horn whatever and say thank you on top.

 

[Portofino]

AEDs as available to the public actually require zero training (call 999 in the U.K. for a suspected cardiac arrest and the operator will direct you (or someone else) to the nearest public access box and provide the codes. No tickets at all never mind annual ones. Training devices are available (usually for far less cost than real ones) but no expectation that anyone other than formal training orgs have them. Pulse ox not essential for defibrillation. Can’t imagine any awkward Qs from using a defib. A tracheostomy might in the hands of someone who felt uncomfortable with the training requirements for defibrillation!

But you said you wouldn’t bother with CPR stuff - CPR is chest compressions. Perhaps it’s a translation issue? Or perhaps it’s time for a refresher course?

Carrying the kit .
Despite the fail proof nature of “ public spaces “ the difference is ownership , maintenance ( as if there isn’t enough kit on boat that’s needs to be in date ) the pads etc . Plus as a ex health care professional ( rtd ) I think happy to be corrected there would more responsibility re training. We used to do CPR training annually for a bit of paper .
Aside sea air environment etc etc .
It’s just a conversation back home with my defence society I wanted to avoid . = the hassle of using it and the Q after the death .

More than comfortable with tracheostomy and a anaphylaxis adrenaline administration btw . Odd I know.

Any how each to there own on what likely to get the best outcome ….I know 1 ml 1:1000 will save a life and have used it to do so .

 

[ylop]

Despite the fail proof nature of “ public spaces “ the difference is ownership , maintenance ( as if there isn’t enough kit on boat that’s needs to be in date ) the pads etc . Plus as a ex health care professional ( rtd ) I think happy to be corrected there would more responsibility re training. We used to do CPR training annually for a bit of paper .
Aside sea air environment etc etc .
It’s just a conversation back home with my defence society I wanted to avoid . = the hassle of using it and the Q after the death .

Your logic seems back to front to me. You either are a healthcare professional or you are not, I can’t see how a retired professional would have any more obligations to be trained in equipment available to the public than Jo public themselves. Are you saying if you are walking in the street 50yds from a public defib and someone drops down in front of you - you will walk on by or not use the defib to avoid litigation risk? I’m not sure what these awkward questions you are anticipating are? Whilst as a lay person not using a defib when it is available probably doesn’t open you up to any actual litigation, I think it would make for an awkward conversation at an inquest especially as a retired professional.

There is a shelf life on the pads and they aren’t cheap, and the device needs charged and eventually will need battery replacing. I’m not saying that I think most yachts should have a defib on board, I think that is unrealistic and probably not that helpful. But I think you are giving a misleading representation of the “burden” of a defib to people who’s clubs may well be considering one.

 

[MapisM]

The law says "a vessel over a certain lenght must have this and that on board".

Unless by certain length you mean 24m, I can't for the life of me think of any law prescribing whatever this or that means.
Got a link? Ideally to the original IT law, but even if you found some EN translation pointing to that, I'd be very curious to see it.

 

[Portofino]

Your logic seems back to front to me. You either are a healthcare professional or you are not, I can’t see how a retired professional would have any more obligations to be trained in equipment available to the public than Jo public themselves. Are you saying if you are walking in the street 50yds from a public defib and someone drops down in front of you - you will walk on by or not use the defib to avoid litigation risk? I’m not sure what these awkward questions you are anticipating are? Whilst as a lay person not using a defib when it is available probably doesn’t open you up to any actual litigation, I think it would make for an awkward conversation at an inquest especially as a retired professional.

There is a shelf life on the pads and they aren’t cheap, and the device needs charged and eventually will need battery replacing. I’m not saying that I think most yachts should have a defib on board, I think that is unrealistic and probably not that helpful. But I think you are giving a misleading representation of the “burden” of a defib to people who’s clubs may well be considering one.

You not grasping the personal responsibility of using your OWN kit .* Although your last para seems to grasp the maintenance liability.

Never said “ walk on by “. More than happy to handed the “ boat clubs “ or whom ever s defibrillator kit .

Anyhow back on topic there’s absolutely zero requirement to carry a defibrillator on the OP s new to him boat cruising CdA to Loano and beyond .

I would advise the OP to carry the basic first aid box readily available in most marina shops …..assuming the boat doesn’t come equipped ?

As previously posted 7 checks , contacts , episodes by officialdom nobody did a kit check .
Paperwork sure buts that’s not the thread topic .

* How many times have we ( Med boaters ) found an infrequently used electrical item in the back of cupboard to find it’s knackered ?
Further investigation shows corroded internal gubbins etc ….I can say a torch , a cordless driver , a small hand held radio ( tender - mothership ) all were new ….but a few yrs of salt air .

 

[requiem]

Unless by certain length you mean 24m, I can't for the life of me think of any law prescribing whatever this or that means.
Got a link? Ideally to the original IT law, but even if you found some EN translation pointing to that, I'd be very curious to see it.

I've been digging about trying to find original source documents, what I found here has a listing of definitions that could possibly be in play:
Page Expired (despite the "2014" in the url, the page indicates updated through 2024).

Google Translate has the following bits under Article 3 (Definitions):

a) pleasure craft ("unità da diporto"): means any construction of any type and with any means of propulsion intended for pleasure navigation;

c) larger pleasure vessel ("nave da diporto maggiore"): means any vessel with a hull length exceeding twenty-four metres, measured according to the harmonised standard UNI/EN/ISO/8666, and with a tonnage exceeding 500 gross tonnage, hereinafter GT, or 600 gross tonnage, hereinafter GRT;

d) small pleasure vessel ("nave da diporto minore"): means any vessel with a hull length exceeding twenty-four metres, measured according to the harmonised standard UNI/EN/ISO/8666, and with a tonnage of up to 500 GT or 600 GRT, excluding the vessels referred to in letter e); ...

f) pleasure craft ("imbarcazione da diporto"): means any vessel with a hull length greater than ten metres and up to twenty-four metres, measured according to the harmonised standard UNI/EN/ISO/8666;

g) recreational vessel ("natante da diporto"): means any rowing vessel or vessel with a hull length equal to or less than ten metres, measured according to the harmonised standard referred to in letter c), with the exclusion of personal watercraft;

(I haven't yet traced them to their usage in equipment requirements.)

Edit 1: The link seems to be getting auto-updated to "Page expired"? That's ironic!

Edit 2: Added the Italian terms, as (a) and (f) were translated the same.

 

[MapisM]

Requiem, it wasn't the vessel classification triggered by their size that we were debating - that's a totally different chapter of the book.

I simply argued with your statement...
The law says "a vessel over a certain lenght must have this and that on board",
...because in fact there's no law saying that to my knowledge, and there's nothing in the webpage you linked that proves me wrong.

When it comes to mandatory safety equipment to have onboard, the one and only legal reference is the table I linked in my post #13, which clearly states that there's no such thing as "this and that" that must be kept onboard regardless of the boat usage.
Every single bit of kit in that table is either mandatory or not, depending only on how far offshore you are cruising.
I appreciate that even if the principle does have some merits, the scheme could have been made much simpler.
But that's another point altogether.

 

[requiem]

MapisM,

That's why I wanted to trace the definitions. Annex V (the pdf you linked) mentions applicability to "imbarcazioni e natanti da diporto", which tells me that indeed it bundles together the requirements for vessels both greater than and less than 10 meters. If it only specified the one, then I'd be searching for a second list.

For example, there is a slightly different list in Annex IX (omits SSB and VHF-DSC, and both stuffed up the sound signal requirement), but it's for "unità da diporto adibite a noleggio", or pleasure craft (units?) used for rentals.

 

[MapisM]

'Scuse my bluntness, but... So, what?
The point that mandatory safety equipment only depends on the distance from the coast is unaffected.
As well as the fact that a moored boat can have none of that onboard, till she doesn't go at sea.

 

[Egbod]

Beware. I have a "yachts" first aid kit on board plus a few extras. When I burnt my arm while reaching across the hot kettle I discovered that I had no burns dressings in the kit. I had got some cling film. I have since bought burns gell and special burn dressings which was not as easy as it should be. Please supplement your first aid kit with burns treatment / dressings.

 

[prinex]

DECRETO 17 settembre 2024, n. 133 - Normattiva

This is the link to the decreto defining what and when to have on board... I guess it can be translated with deepl and integrated to all the definitions etc.

Or you buy the 30eur kit at the local marina shop, they know what the local Guardia costiera wants and that's it.

It may as well that for vessels never leaving port it can be argued I don't need this or that, never went that route, just bought the kit every X years.

 

[prinex]

Expecting to find on such boat a life raft, or an EPIRB, or even just life jackets would be laughable...

I can think of many occurrences where a boat in port safely moored could need life jackets (fire on dock, boat sinking suddenly etc).

 

[westernman]

DECRETO 17 settembre 2024, n. 133 - Normattiva

This is the link to the decreto defining what and when to have on board... I guess it can be translated with deepl and integrated to all the definitions etc.

Or you buy the 30eur kit at the local marina shop, they know what the local Guardia costiera wants and that's it.

It may as well that for vessels never leaving port it can be argued I don't need this or that, never went that route, just bought the kit every X years.

Yes. And don't unwrap it.
Buy the stuff you need and use and keep it separate.

 

[benjenbav]

Beware. I have a "yachts" first aid kit on board plus a few extras. When I burnt my arm while reaching across the hot kettle I discovered that I had no burns dressings in the kit. I had got some cling film. I have since bought burns gell and special burn dressings which was not as easy as it should be. Please supplement your first aid kit with burns treatment / dressings.

Well, you’re in good company with the cling film. Following an ambulance admission to Stoke Mandeville burns unit that was the first thing they used. I was sceptical but was told it worked better than anything to prevent air from aggravating burns.