It was all going so smoothly....

[clyst]

Basically they had NO propulsion - flat calm = no wind ... backup = engine ... engine kaput = no propulsion ..

Although I agree that a Pan Pan wasn't the right call - the OP (seems to) recognise that as well - a Securite would've been more appropriate in the circumstances. But I doubt if it would've changed the response by the CG.

A vessel with no appreciable propulsion is a hazard - you normally hear CG's asking if the vessel can anchor - as at least that removes the "where are they" variable - but perhaps this wasn't an option for the OP and the CG took the decision away from them.

Basically they had NO propulsion

As I have said before ----- If every yacht radio the CG when becalmed the airwaves would be chockered on a lovely sunny afternoon !

 

[savageseadog]

Basically they had NO propulsion

They did, there's never no wind for long, it's just a case of waiting.

 

[snooks]

In my opinion yes. It' called being self sufficient. (Newlyn to Kilmore, so only fuel for half of that)

Yep 140 miles Newlyn to Kilmore, so the auxiliary to the auxiliary would need at least 70 miles, they would have had enough diesel for all of 140 miles (I did when I that trip), but you were suggesting taking an extra 30 litres of petrol AS WELL! Just in case the two other forms of propulsion failed.

May be OP should have taken two Atlantic rowers for when the OB fails? Then some spare oars as well? How about Trained turtles, for when the spare oars brake? Where do you stop??

You cannot prepare for all eventualities.

Yes the OP could have drifted around for the next day and a half going nowhere, so they put out an alert.

It's hardly the case of not being prepared for the trip they were undertaking.

 

[fireball]

As I have said before ----- If every yacht radio the CG when becalmed the airwaves would be chockered on a lovely sunny afternoon !

Welcome to my world!

 

[fireball]

They did, there's never no wind for long, it's just a case of waiting.

Read the OP ...

A sailing wind didn't arrive until 1800 hours on Friday so we'd have been stuck drifting for 38 hours with a 9 or 10 hour sail to follow!

 

[snooks]

They did, there's never no wind for long, it's just a case of waiting.

The trip would have taken around 28 hours at 5 knots. The OP said a sailing breeze didn't appear for 38 hours, so a day and bit trip would have taken 62 hours! Well over twice as long?

Depends on your definition of "long" and how long you are prepared to wait....

 

[AntarcticPilot]

So should I not have issued a pan pan then?
I thought I was being responsible letting others in the area know we were unable to shift out of their way.
You've all been quick to have a pop but it wasn't like what you are thinking.
No one has yet answered my question as to what you would have done in the same circumstances and if you couldn't fix the motor?

I'm also interested to know what contingency plans you make for an engine failure?

I was asked to crew due to my experience of sailing in the winds and seas we might encounter and Indeed posted on here asking for advice on the in mast reefing system so that I was as prepared as I could be for that.
Yes, we had a passage plan and the engine had a compete overhaul in Levington, new filters etc, tank cleaned, new diesel, the works and it had been very reliable all along the south coast.

The weather window was pretty short, with this period of calm followed quickly by high winds and big seas which is why we went when we did.

Shouldn't it have been a Securite call, rather than Pan-Pan? The latter is a call for help; the former is a call to notify other ships of a potential danger. But I am only suggesting this, and in any case it is the CG's call as to how to respond to an "all ships" call.

I happen to have been in a similar situation last year, with an engine failure caused by fuel starvation. It turned out to be a ridiculously simple thing to fix - the fuel tap had been turned off by an engineer, and I didn't check it (I never switch the fuel tap off). The conditions weren't at all bad, but there was a short choppy sea, and it was difficult to do any diagnostic work - and I thought I'd run out of fuel, so didn't investigate further! But as there was a good breeze, we sailed to a location where we could get alongside under sail, and I did not call the CG. My wife did suggest that we should, but I felt that we weren't in any danger, and so we got ourselves out of trouble. It gave us a lot more confidence in our ability to handle mishaps like this!

Lessons learnt!

1. Don't Panic!
2. Check the obvious things!
3. The boat will handle more that we will. Conditions weren't bad, but trying to diagnose even simple things in a short choppy sea is not easy (we were off Ardlamont Point, which Clyde sailors will know to be have a nasty choppy sea most of the time). And while I am fine on deck, getting into confined, oily spaces is almost certain to make me sea-sick.
4. Be flexible. We changed our destination to one that we could approach under sail, and one that was downwind rather than upwind.
5. We can manage without an engine if we have to.
6. Do the diesel course (we did!)

 

[savageseadog]

The trip would have taken around 28 hours at 5 knots. The OP said a sailing breeze didn't appear for 38 hours, so a day and bit trip would have taken 62 hours! Well over twice as long?...........

so what?

 

[Champagne Murphy]

I'm amazed, not that anyone would broadcast their situation on VHF (and frankly I'd have done so every half hour given the short range of VHF and the huge distance it takes to turn a large ship) but that they might think that NOT doing so was seamanlike. The CG and the LB are grown ups, they are equipped and trained to assess and deal with all manner of eventualities and I'm absolutely certain that if they wanted the plaintiff to wait they would have said so and given appropriate advice. The crossest I've heard the CG was when they WEREN'T kept informed of ongoing situations.
You give them the info, they decide what to do with it.

 

[Elemental]

This is a good thought provoking thread.

Isn't a lot of this easy with hindsight? I can sit here and think that a Pan call ("I need assistance") rather than securite was overkill. But if I was on board, with no real knowledge of when a sailing wind would arrive and perhaps a bit fearful of getting mowed down...

I'm a naturally self sufficient person. But not everyone is or can be. I don't have a length of poly pipe onboard - but I think I'll get one and stuff if into the engine compartment, along with a couple of right sized clips. Might also try and track down a RNLI diesel course this winter.

If (and there is an 'if') there's fault, it seems to lie across a number of agencies. The skipper (for an alarmist call), the CG (for requesting a LB launch), the LB for insisting on a tow. This sort of CG response does make me less likely to report something 'for information only' tho.

BTW I have 5L of two stroke...

 

[fireball]

so what?

Meanwhile they're sat there with NO PROPULSION* unable to avoid any vessels that are in danger of hitting them. Therefore a call out on the VHF was prudent - especially so if it was near a shipping lane and ships wouldn't expect a vessel to be sat adrift there.



* only in caps because I used the term previously and have demonstrated that it was infact the case.

 

[Croak]

Yep 140 miles Newlyn to Kilmore, so the auxiliary to the auxiliary would need at least 70 miles, they would have had enough diesel for all of 140 miles (I did when I that trip), but you were suggesting taking an extra 30 litres of petrol AS WELL! Just in case the two other forms of propulsion failed.

The first form of propulsion (the sails) hadn't failed. It was known about before they set off

The boat is now a powerboat and was going to be for the next 48hours.

Would you not ask the question, “What if the engine failed?”

I know I would, and I would come up with a way out of it. I would at least know how to bleed the fuel system, check the banjo’s and replace any filters before I set off, or I would think I was not up to the task and wait for some better weather.

And yes, I still have 50l of petrol in 2X25l containers in the aft locker, from my 300 mile trip last week . If I can afford it I would be suprised If anyone else couldn't

 

[fireball]

The crossest I've heard the CG was when they WEREN'T kept informed of ongoing situations.
You give them the info, they decide what to do with it.

Indeed ... they'd rather know what the problems that seafarers are facing than get an emergency call when the contingency plans have failed.

FWIW - the only time I've lost engine when I wanted it was away from shipping - I knew what the problem was (propshaft had come out of the gearbox) and I could sail back to the mooring.
I did make 2 telephone calls though - one to the owner (F-i-Law) and the other to my father - either of whom could get to the mooring and assist me if I'd not been able to get there myself.

Had it occurred in the shipping channels of the solent I would've expected the CG to get me shifted out of the channel straight away - purely because I'd've been a hazard to shipping ...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Indeed ... they'd rather know what the problems that seafarers are facing than get an emergency call when the contingency plans have failed.

FWIW - the only time I've lost engine when I wanted it was away from shipping - I knew what the problem was (propshaft had come out of the gearbox) and I could sail back to the mooring.
I did make 2 telephone calls though - one to the owner (F-i-Law) and the other to my father - either of whom could get to the mooring and assist me if I'd not been able to get there myself.

Had it occurred in the shipping channels of the solent I would've expected the CG to get me shifted out of the channel straight away - purely because I'd've been a hazard to shipping ...

I think the problem is that the PERCEPTION is that the CG might well decide to do something that the skipper regards as inappropriate. I didn't call the CG a) because I wasn't in any trouble I couldn't get out of and b) I didn't want the CG to decide I needed assistance when I didn't.

It would be nice if the various members of the CG who post on here could assure us that they will at least discuss the type of assistance that is required (if any) with people who call them to report a problem. I might have called the CG if I hadn't felt that their response might well be to send a lifeboat out to give me a tow that was not necessary, and which had the potential to damage my boat (see the OP's description of the problems caused by the tow!). I was also in a location where the lifeboat response time would have been several hours. It is worth recalling that towing a 31' boat at over 7 knots will put enormous forces on the points the towing line is secured to, and most yachts do not have strong points designed to take that kind of force. The OP's description of making a bridle attached to several points is a good lesson for us all, I think.

Of course, I was NOT in a shipping channel, and was not in an area with significant commercial traffic. If I had been, my response might well have been different.

 

[clyst]

Yep 140 miles Newlyn to Kilmore, so the auxiliary to the auxiliary would need at least 70 miles, they would have had enough diesel for all of 140 miles (I did when I that trip), but you were suggesting taking an extra 30 litres of petrol AS WELL! Just in case the two other forms of propulsion failed.

May be OP should have taken two Atlantic rowers for when the OB fails? Then some spare oars as well? How about Trained turtles, for when the spare oars brake? Where do you stop??

You cannot prepare for all eventualities.

Yes the OP could have drifted around for the next day and a half going nowhere, so they put out an alert.

It's hardly the case of not being prepared for the trip they were undertaking.

"Yes the OP could have drifted around for the next day and a half going nowhere, so they put out an alert."

So what if the boat wasn't fitted with an engine ?? Would you expect sailors without engines to radio the CG if the wind died ?? No of course not .

Are you suggesting that it is unseaman like to put to sea without an endine ?? I hope not .

One important thing about all this is we dont have a transcript of the pan pan . It could have requested help .

 

[snooks]

so what?

Don't you have friends/relatives that might be a little bit concerned if you were 47 hours overdue? How would you contact them 45 miles off shore?

Alerting the CG might prevent a full blown SAR operation when your batteries are flat and you can't hear the CG's VHF broadcast.

Unless you have solar power you have no way of charging your batteries.

Trying to start your engine battery could flatten your engine battery, so you have your house batteries, how long would they last? Would you be using radar at night/restricted vis? How about nav lights at night? Would saving battery power be your first priority or trying to start the engine?

 

[clyst]

Don't you have friends/relatives that might be a little bit concerned if you were 47 hours overdue? How would you contact them 45 miles off shore?

Alerting the CG might prevent a full blown SAR operation when your batteries are flat and you can't hear the CG's VHF broadcast.

Unless you have solar power you have no way of charging your batteries.

Trying to start your engine battery could flatten your engine battery, so you have your house batteries, how long would they last? Would you be using radar at night/restricted vis? How about nav lights at night? Would saving battery power be your first priority or trying to start the engine?

Radio the CG and tell them to reassure the contact person on the CG66 that was logged with them that you would be a tad late .

 

[Croak]

Unless you have solar power you have no way of charging your batteries.

Trying to start your engine battery could flatten your engine battery, so you have your house batteries, how long would they last? Would you be using radar at night/restricted vis? How about nav lights at night? Would saving battery power be your first priority or trying to start the engine?

These are things you should think about before setting off, in my case I had a solar pannel and a generator on board.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

And yes, I still have 50l of petrol in 2X25l containers in the aft locker, from my 300 mile trip last week.

I still think it is a very strange way to make a trip safer, and I'd hazard a guess that no-one else does the same.

 

[fireball]

These are things you should think about before setting off, in my case I had a solar pannel and a generator on board.

Are you using your 50l of fuel for the generator or outboard?
Is the Solar panel enough to power the VHF ? What if it is cloudy?