Is this a YBW banning offense - asking about French Registry?

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SpiderMoobs said:
VAT status changes when buying an EU based boat when re-registering the boat in the UK
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That is an interesting matter - VAT ...

Having Shipping / Port based business here in Baltics gives me access to some clever minds in Border Guards / Customs etc. Pal and I were looking at various boats for him and UK was one location we checked out. This is all over last 2021 ... so post Brexit.

Our info was that if we could 'show' boat was bought before Brexit .. invoice / receipt ... and some supporting bills such as marina fees .... then as long as all showed ownership during UK EU membership - it could be looked on 'kindly' by Import Authorities here ... in fact they 'suggested' it would come in and be ignored.

But I never told 'you' this !!
 
SpiderMoobs said:
VAT status changes when buying an EU based boat when re-registering the boat in the UK
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What is the problem with that? Most EU boats have good provenance so just register on Part 1. Fraction of the cost and hassle of most EU states' registration apart possibly from the "survey" and there are tonnage surveyors in most places. Specific state registration is not an EU requirement and it is perfectly acceptable to have an EU VAT paid boat with UK registration.
 
Refueler said:
I don't know if rules have changed - but keeping boat in EU and maintain UK SSR reg'n ? I know many do in Spain and other locations ...

But my experience with it :

To have UK SSR - I was asked to have verifiable UK Utility Bills and address ...... I was also told that if boat is not EU reg'd - then it had a 6 month max per year - then to depart EU .... at the time I was told - UK was in debate as to in / out of EU. Border people here expected Brexit to happen - so talked about what would be result for my boat if I put back on SSR from Lat Reg'n.

While UK was in EU ... 6 month rule did not apply ... but what killed it for me - was the UK address / Utility Bills ...

I even tried to have my Son - lives in own house in Portsmouth as co-owner ......... SSR refused saying ALL owners to be UK address / bills etc.

The funny thing is - SSR rules did me a favour as now I have reg'n for life and cheaper than SSR.... without need for renewals.
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Don't know who made up the "6 month" bit - never heard of that. There is no restriction on how long a UK registered boat is in the EU - registration is nothing to do with the EU, but international law. Now UK is not in the EU the restriction is on UK VAT paid boats (as opposed to UK owned and/or registered EU VAT paid boats) that can enter the EU under Temporary Admission for 18 months before it has to leave - but may re-enter for another 18 months. Effectively that can mean indefinitely, just as , for example many Swiss boats are kept in the EU, provided the boat leaves for a short period every 18 months. Management of this process is at individual state level.
 
Refueler said:
I don't know if rules have changed - but keeping boat in EU and maintain UK SSR reg'n ? I know many do in Spain and other locations ...

But my experience with it :

To have UK SSR - I was asked to have verifiable UK Utility Bills and address ...... I was also told that if boat is not EU reg'd - then it had a 6 month max per year - then to depart EU .... at the time I was told - UK was in debate as to in / out of EU. Border people here expected Brexit to happen - so talked about what would be result for my boat if I put back on SSR from Lat Reg'n.

While UK was in EU ... 6 month rule did not apply ... but what killed it for me - was the UK address / Utility Bills ...

I even tried to have my Son - lives in own house in Portsmouth as co-owner ......... SSR refused saying ALL owners to be UK address / bills etc.

The funny thing is - SSR rules did me a favour as now I have reg'n for life and cheaper than SSR.... without need for renewals.
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I've never heard of a six month rule for anything, except maybe qualifying as resident for UK SSR registration. 18 months temporary admission is the regulation for non-VAT paid boats NOT owned by a resident, otherwise VAT has to be paid on entry. Our SSR boat has been in EU with VAT paid status for about 17 years and no problems pre or post Brexit.
 
SpiderMoobs, you asked:

"Is this a YBW banning offense - asking about French Registry?"

I doubt if it it is, but what may get you into trouble with the forum management is commenting on the idiocy that has caused us to now have to think about re-registering our boats, getting residence permits, applying for visas, or using Schengen calculators; when in the past we could just come and go (and stay) around Europe pretty much as we damn well pleased!

:mad:
 
Graham376 said:
I've never heard of a six month rule for anything, except maybe qualifying as resident for UK SSR registration. 18 months temporary admission is the regulation for non-VAT paid boats NOT owned by a resident, otherwise VAT has to be paid on entry. Our SSR boat has been in EU with VAT paid status for about 17 years and no problems pre or post Brexit.
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The EU general ruling for a Non EU registered boat is 18 months - then has to depart to outside EU waters - on return can be TA'd again for 18months. As you say - VAT paid entitles 'import' to the EU. My post was more towards just an SSR boat to stay in EU without paying VAT. So lets stay with that ... not everyone wants to pay VAT on top of already paid out !!

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/system/files/2018-04/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf

But we hear all the time about EU says sovereignty remains with member state. The duration was 6 months in Latvia .... as to whether it has changed - I will have to check. They may have accepted the general EU TA condition since I last checked. We've had all sorts of changes come in about RHD cars and all sorts since Brexit ... previously RHD cars were banned from registering here and only given temp admission - now with certain additions can stay and be registered ... rules are changing here and its not so easy to keep up. Plus local authorities can vary in the depth of 'enforcement' or not.
 
Your boat can be EU VAT paid or UK VAT paid depending where it was on 31st December 2020. You (or the previous owner) made your choice on that date.

If your boat is EU VAT paid you can leave it/keep it in the EU for as long as you like with no restriction. No need to pay VAT again.
Similiarly it if is UK VAT paid you can leave it/keep it in the UK for as long as you like with no restriction. No need to pay VAT again.

If you reside in the UK and bring a non UK VAT boat into the UK you will become liable to pay UK VAT on entry.
If you reside in the EU and bring a non EU VAT boat into the EU you will become liable to pay VAT in the EU country you first enter into.

Otherwise you can benefit from temporary import - TA for up to 18 months at a go.

If it was your boat on the 31st of December 2020 and was in the EU, and is still your boat now and you reside in the UK, you may be able to re-import it back into the UK without paying VAT again. Google return of goods relief for details on that.
 
SpiderMoobs said:
I hope you're correct
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He is correct. You can buy a boat in the EU and register it anywhere you want and that alone wouldn't change it's VAT status. But, if you then move it to another VAT territory/customs area where you are resident or, keep it there for extended period, that's the point it would attract VAT.
 
Refueler said:
But we hear all the time about EU says sovereignty remains with member state. The duration was 6 months in Latvia .... as to whether it has changed - I will have to check. They may have accepted the general EU TA condition since I last checked. We've had all sorts of changes come in about RHD cars and all sorts since Brexit ... previously RHD cars were banned from registering here and only given temp admission - now with certain additions can stay and be registered ... rules are changing here and its not so easy to keep up. Plus local authorities can vary in the depth of 'enforcement' or not.
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That is simply wrong. TA - and anything to do with VAT is not a state competence, but an EU one, so Latvia has no option but to follow the rules - and it has always been the case. If they are not doing it complain to the Commission who will make them follow the rules (just as has happened in Croatia and Greece. And once again, registration has nothing to do with VAT and the rules for movement of boats - no matter what local officials in their ignorance may think. Rules for boats are also nothing to do with rules for cars.

On the other hand rules about registration, equipment licencing of skippers etc is still a state competence, hence the wide variation across the EU and the attraction of British (and other red flag) registration which requires none of the restrictions required in many state systems for leisure boats. International law only requires flag state identification which the SSR gives, and Part 1 has the added bonus of being a register of title.
 
That is simply wrong. TA - and anything to do with VAT is not a state competence, but an EU one, so Latvia has no option but to follow the rules - and it has always been the case. If they are not doing it complain to the Commission who will make them follow the rules (just as has happened in Croatia and Greece. And once again, registration has nothing to do with VAT and the rules for movement of boats - no matter what local officials in their ignorance may think. Rules for boats are also nothing to do with rules for cars.
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Wrong actually .....

Latvia altered VAT % rule during the Euro crisis and then returned to its 21% level. Example : Fill company car with fuel outside business hours incurred double VAT rate penalty. It has used the taxation on various items such as trying to reduce the dumping of German Auction cars in Latvia (over 10yrs old etc).

The minimum standard VAT rate required to be applied in EU states is 15%. But individual states can apply any figure they decide as long as it is at or higher than that 15%.

Here's examples :

Current national VAT rates

I don't see EU wide enforced VAT figure across the Union ......

The mention of cars I made was just to illustrate that Latvia acts as it decides .. still does today.
 
Refueler said:
Wrong actually .....

Latvia altered VAT % rule during the Euro crisis and then returned to its 21% level. Example : Fill company car with fuel outside business hours incurred double VAT rate penalty. It has used the taxation on various items such as trying to reduce the dumping of German Auction cars in Latvia (over 10yrs old etc).

The minimum standard VAT rate required to be applied in EU states is 15%. But individual states can apply any figure they decide as long as it is at or higher than that 15%.

Here's examples :

Current national VAT rates

I don't see EU wide enforced VAT figure across the Union ......

The mention of cars I made was just to illustrate that Latvia acts as it decides .. still does today.
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Nothing to do with VAT rates. Rates can be varied by states, and as you say vary across the EU subject to the EU maximum.

The VAT issue on boats is to do with "free circulation" which allows boats that are VAT paid (or deemed VAT paid) in the EU can be kept and move around the whole of the EU irrespective of where the VAT was paid, and independent of any local state flag registration. Until 31/12/2020 this included all UK boats, but the Withdrawal Agreement reset the status of boats such that those in the EU on that date (even if VAT was originally paid in the UK) became "EU boats" with free movement and boats in the UK lost that and became subject to "third country" rules.

Some local officials sometimes conflate flag state and VAT status - Croatia and Greece for example that I mentioned earlier, but EU rules do not. In the case of both those states, a complaint to the Commission sorted them out!
 
Tranona said:
Nothing to do with VAT rates. Rates can be varied by states, and as you say vary across the EU subject to the EU maximum.

The VAT issue on boats is to do with "free circulation" which allows boats that are VAT paid (or deemed VAT paid) in the EU can be kept and move around the whole of the EU irrespective of where the VAT was paid, and independent of any local state flag registration. Until 31/12/2020 this included all UK boats, but the Withdrawal Agreement reset the status of boats such that those in the EU on that date (even if VAT was originally paid in the UK) became "EU boats" with free movement and boats in the UK lost that and became subject to "third country" rules.

Some local officials sometimes conflate flag state and VAT status - Croatia and Greece for example that I mentioned earlier, but EU rules do not. In the case of both those states, a complaint to the Commission sorted them out!
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Stay on subject please ....

1. EU does not set MAXIMUM - it sets MINIMUM GUIDELINE rate. Presently 15%. Should a State decide to set a rate under that - EU then exacts punitive penaltys and pressure on that state. It also can do this if rate is set significantly higher.

Agreed that item (Boat / Car / Coffee maker ... whatever) once VAT paid in any EU state gives freedom from VAT in other EU states - but as we saw with German auction cars of over 10yrs old - 'imported' into Latvia incurred penalty PVN (Latvian term for VAT). It was to try and reduce Latvia being the dumping ground for auction crap ! The number of cars that were from the floods a few years back caused a serious problem here. FACT. As owner of company's here - I experienced exactly that buying in cars for my employees, and the double tax rate on fuel bought outside business hours. I accept that for private person - the fuel hike did not apply - but the car 10 yr did. The car is an illustration to show that EU taxation is not set in stone across EU. The 10 yr rule and Fuel penalty may have been stopped - I'm asking my Accounts Mgr.

EDIT : Ok .. just checked with my accounts mgr - Latvia has stopped penalising 10yr old cars - and extra fuel tax as well. This was not by EU decision - purely a state decision. But now we have Germany imposing a restriction on Company sales outside Germany !! all to do with VAT and economy !!

EU .... :rolleyes:
 
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westernman said:
No one in their right mind who is not resident in France and is not keeping their boat in France registers their boat on the French registry because of taxes. These taxes:-
Calculation of the annual fee for francization and navigation (FFN)

Payable for any French flagged boat. Wherever the owner is resident. Whatever the nationality of the owner.
And in theory payable by any person resident in France who has a boat flagged elsewhere (when it is called "Le droit de passeport" but amounts to exactly the same amount of tax).

You might wonder (but not for very long ;-) why many French residents (French or otherwise) people who keep their boats in Spain or Italy don't have their boats registered in France.
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Wow. That's a shit load of money. Gotta love socialism. Best move over the border to Spain eh!
 
Refueler said:
Stay on subject please ....

1. EU does not set MAXIMUM - it sets MINIMUM GUIDELINE rate. Presently 15%. Should a State decide to set a rate under that - EU then exacts punitive penaltys and pressure on that state. It also can do this if rate is set significantly higher.

Agreed that item (Boat / Car / Coffee maker ... whatever) once VAT paid in any EU state gives freedom from VAT in other EU states - but as we saw with German auction cars of over 10yrs old - 'imported' into Latvia incurred penalty PVN (Latvian term for VAT). It was to try and reduce Latvia being the dumping ground for auction crap ! The number of cars that were from the floods a few years back caused a serious problem here. FACT. As owner of company's here - I experienced exactly that buying in cars for my employees, and the double tax rate on fuel bought outside business hours. I accept that for private person - the fuel hike did not apply - but the car 10 yr did. The car is an illustration to show that EU taxation is not set in stone across EU. The 10 yr rule and Fuel penalty may have been stopped - I'm asking my Accounts Mgr.

EDIT : Ok .. just checked with my accounts mgr - Latvia has stopped penalising 10yr old cars - and extra fuel tax as well. This was not by EU decision - purely a state decision. But now we have Germany imposing a restriction on Company sales outside Germany !! all to do with VAT and economy !!

EU .... :rolleyes:
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Thought I was on subject - about registration of boats NOT about cars and differing rates of VAT in different states.

So, please stay on the subject as hopefully you have learned that a lot of your understanding was flawed.
 
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