Is there a trend to combine anchoring and shore-lines into one technique ...

[RichardS]

... which captures the worst of both techniques?

This has now happened twice on this Croatian cruise, once to us and once to the guy below. It's the same story both times ..... some boats are tied with shorelines and another boat arrives, us the first time, and decides to anchor .... perhaps only staying one night, perhaps short-handed, perhaps can't be bothered to launch the dinghy, whatever .... but does the swinging calculation such that if the wind goes round at night then the anchored boat will not hit any of the stern-tied boats.

Fine so far .... until another boat arrives later on and, rather than anchoring, decides they will also take shorelines. Now, if the new boat were to tuck up against the shore with perhaps a 1/4 or 1/2 boat length out, which is fine depth-wise in Croatia, then perhaps there's enough clearance in the swinging circle to avoid any contact, or at least make it possible to pull in a bit of chain to reduce the circle .... but when the shore-lined boat leaves a full boat length or more, I'm beginning to wonder what the point of using shorelines is anyway. One might as well just anchor.

In this case, the monohull had been anchored for some hours and we were anchored a bit further up the inlet, when in comes the boat with the red towel and ties up to shore leaving about one and a half boat lengths between the stern and the shore.

Once they were settled with their endless shore line, the anchored monohull immediately went round his boat and put out all his fenders. I thought the red towel monohull might take the hint at this point and pull in their shoreline a tad ..... but all they did was go around and put out all their fenders as well!

Luckily the wind in the photo occasion stayed very light and consistent during the night, unlike my experience a couple of weeks ago when it blew up after darkness fell making a collision for us absolutely inevitable. :ambivalence:

It seems I'm missing something here, but what is the point of shorelines which are 1.5X longer than the length of the boat?

The next boat along seems to have the same approach to long shorelines as well but at least they were there first so can do as they like and everyone else has to fit around them or go somewhere else, which is fair enough.

Richard

 

[Yngmar]

Fenders have become the only means of communication? That's a problem indeed.

 

[RichardS]

Fenders have become the only means of communication? That's a problem indeed.

They might well have exchanged words as well .... as I did with my late-arrival collision seeker. But that merely resulted in us having to up anchor and head off into the pitch blackness at midnight to find somewhere else to anchor. When it's your own boat versus a charter boat, which party do you think is going to give a toss whether their boat gets damaged? :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[noelex]

It can be a nuisance.

Part of the problem is that boats arriving and using shore lines often do not perceive a need to tie up in a way that existing boats at anchor will not swing into them. This applies even if there is an predicted windshift that will obviously cause a issue.

There is sometimes a similar problem with boats deploying multiple anchors.

The motivation is often to keep the boat stationary, with the belief that if stationary any contact must be fault of the boat that has moved.

Often just reducing scope to a low level will solve the issue, but sometimes there is a need to move. At least with modern anchor windlasses this is usually quick and easy.

 

[Neeves]

Shore lines are employed for a variety of reasons, its a very steep drop off (some places round Sydney) or the wind is going to be bracing - but in the latter there are usually few people - in fact you might be the only yacht for miles. Shore lines can be very long, much longer than 1.5 times the length of the boat - carrying 40m lengths (4 off) would not be unusual and 100m lines (that can be doubled back) would not be unheard of, if not common. It would not be unusual to use 4 shore lines and 2 anchors

We seldom see people using shore lines except in the Baltic or high latitudes.

Securing the yacht so it does not move is valuable if the anchorage is subject to bullets from opposite directions, or in the Baltic you want to step ashore but the tendency is to get as close to shore as possible (and use short lines). In most cases you will have both anchor(s) and shore lines deployed.

None of this solves the issues you suggest (though I'd be amazed if many charter boats used shore lines - I'd be amazed if charter boat even have lines long enough to tie ashore). One reason we do not frequent the Whitsundays any more is simply as a result of the size of charter fleets -and the dangers of having too many inexperienced operators in very close proximity. When we were last there, we moved - it was simpler (its difficult to teach someone about swing room who is well into party mode).

Another issue - most people do not mark their shore lines - which makes it difficult to work out how yacht are arranged - if you arrive in the dark.

Popular locations are a magnet for charter boats.

Jonathan

 

[zoidberg]

... which captures the worst of both techniques?

.....when in comes the boat with the red towel and ties up to shore......

....I thought the red towel monohull might take the hint at this point......

Were they Germans, by any chance?

 

[RupertW]

I’ve seen this for some years and when we use shorelines it’s sometimes two or more boat lengths out depending on the shallowness of the shore, but the trouble is that once one boat decides on its position you have to follow suit so if you come together the boats are almost aligned with fenders but not masts.

When a shore is used you effectively have a med mooring situation so many many more boats can use a bay so it’s selfish to free anchor near that shore and take up far more space.

However if you are already anchored then the right approach is to adjust your chain and put a line on shore yourself. If you are away from the boat then I agee it’s a hassle and a risk for you and the shoreline person who chose to be nearby.

 

[tudorsailor]

I am not a fan of taking a line ashore. Although more boats can be accommodated, it strikes me that there is a real problem if the wind comes up and is on the beam. Then you are asking your anchor to resist sideways or at least oblique force and not an in line pull for which it is designed. In addition you have the beam of the yacht presented to the wind and not the bow.

Then there is the question of how tight to make the stern lines. Do you have them tight enough to pull the anchor chain straight as you would when med mooring on the anchor? If the stern lines are not tight you can go back a long way if the wind is on the nose or quite a long way to the side, if the wind is on the beam.
Or am I overthinking this......

Tudorsailor

 

[RupertW]

I am not a fan of taking a line ashore. Although more boats can be accommodated, it strikes me that there is a real problem if the wind comes up and is on the beam. Then you are asking your anchor to resist sideways or at least oblique force and not an in line pull for which it is designed. In addition you have the beam of the yacht presented to the wind and not the bow.

Then there is the question of how tight to make the stern lines. Do you have them tight enough to pull the anchor chain straight as you would when med mooring on the anchor? If the stern lines are not tight you can go back a long way if the wind is on the nose or quite a long way to the side, if the wind is on the beam.
Or am I overthinking this......

Tudorsailor

An anchor with a constant pull in one direction can.be trusted with the extra forces of a beam wind more than one which responds to the change by having to swing round.

I prefer a tight shore line to minimise swinging and like the recentish trend for two shore lines widely angled as that alllows more boats to park and held with less movement. The only hassle is that lines will cross so could chafe but in practice there seems to be enough variation in height and angle that it doesn’t seem to happen too often. Of course the ideal is two lines back to the windward shore of a bay.

 

[RichardS]

I’ve seen this for some years and when we use shorelines it’s sometimes two or more boat lengths out depending on the shallowness of the shore, but the trouble is that once one boat decides on its position you have to follow suit so if you come together the boats are almost aligned with fenders but not masts.

When a shore is used you effectively have a med mooring situation so many many more boats can use a bay so it’s selfish to free anchor near that shore and take up far more space.

However if you are already anchored then the right approach is to adjust your chain and put a line on shore yourself. If you are away from the boat then I agee it’s a hassle and a risk for you and the shoreline person who chose to be nearby.

It's all about perception I guess. When I came into the bay and saw the boat free anchored I certainly didn't think selfish for one second .... I though sensible and went and anchored downwind of him. I only thought "selfish" when the red towel monohull came in and created a collision situation. There was plenty of space for him to free anchor or he could have just gone somewhere else if he was so desperate to use shorelines.

I can't see that there is any justification for deliberately creating a collision situation. It's not as if there is a shortage of bays to choose from.

Richard

 

[Spyro]

Were they Germans, by any chance?

What on earth has that got to do with it? They are the ones doing the the sensible thing. Croatia is busy. What they are doing is allowing a lot more boats to use the same anchorage. Some anchorages where you pay already have the shore lines laid to a mooring. You just pick it up and tie on bow and stern. It works.

 

[Neeves]

It's all about perception I guess. When I came into the bay and saw the boat free anchored I certainly didn't think selfish for one second .... I though sensible and went and anchored downwind of him. I only thought "selfish" when the red towel monohull came in and created a collision situation. There was plenty of space for him to free anchor or he could have just gone somewhere else if he was so desperate to use shorelines.

I can't see that there is any justification for deliberately creating a collision situation. It's not as if there is a shortage of bays to choose from.

Richard

Charter boat with inexperienced crew are advised here when in doubt on an anchorage to look for obviously privately owned boats, preferably with wind gens (or anything that defines it being private as opposed to charter). Then anchor as close to the privately owned boat - because they will have chosen a good place to anchor.

It has some logic. But very annoying

I wish more people would use more shore lines - it would allow better use of tight space - accepting you would prefer not to secure your yacht beam on - but then people who use shore lines will usually know what they are doing.

We prefer when we use shore lines to use 2 off the transom in a fork (we have a shore line specifically made up to do this, splice in the middle) and 2 anchors off the bow (with all lines taut-ish) - it keeps the yacht roughly in one place and allows use of very tight spaces. Being a cat we can get very close to shore. Ideally we would also use lines to shore off the beam - but it depends on the geography.

But shore lines, depends on the weather (or wind) and what the anchorage is like.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

When it's your own boat versus a charter boat, which party do you think is going to give a toss whether their boat gets damaged? :ambivalence:

Richard

There was a posting not long ago about someon complaining the amount of deposit a charter company wanted to hold back in case of damages , I wish they would hold back a heck of a lot more , it may make the charterers think a bit more .
Also I can't see the problem , no damage and you get all the deposit back .
Going back out o this thread , we do some time tie back , there are places that the only real option is to do so , but if we turned up and people was free swinging one would expect that you would take that into account and make sure they not going to come close to you to cause a problem .
I can understand it with charters , some not all having got the brain they where born with , a lot a very novice , BUT with private own boats ????

 

[Crisby]

We are regular charterers, 2 or 3 times a year for 20 years and the security deposit has steadily gone up over those years from £500 for a 32footer to 4500 Euros for a 42 this year and I take a great deal of pride in always returning the boat in as good condition as when we left (better on a few occasions!) but that security deposit is certainly an extra incentive!

But we have also been boat owners (and will be again soon) and fitted out our own 31fter so understand people’s attitude to some charterers who perhaps shouldn’t be in charge of a lilo, let alone a 50ft yacht with 10 people on it. Just occasionally though we do come across some bad owners as well, but maybe they are just a bit stressed by having a charter boat nearby!

 

[noelex]

though I'd be amazed if many charter boats used shore lines

I suspect some if not most of the yachts in Richard’s photo are charter yachts. They often prefer tying to shore. I think they are less comfortable anchoring, and tied to shore feels more similar to a marina berth and therefore more secure.

This is also sometimes part of the problem that Richard has mentioned. The charter yachts more often misjudge their drop point (truth is we all do that from time to time) and end up running out of chain before reaching the desired distance from the stern and so end up like the photo shows.

I am not having a go a charter yacht skippers. We all have to learn new skills. Their difficulties are compounded with often an unfamiliar boat, cruising area and crew so try to help them where possible. We should not forget that anchoring a boat overnight, no matter how it’s done, can be a daunting experience for the first few times.

 

[noelex]

Most of the issues could be solved with just a little consideration.

One factor that has not been mentioned is that boats anchoring in a bay where boats are tied to shore also need to be careful not to cause problems for the shore tied boats.

A common problem is not understanding the longer length of chain that is often used by shore tied boats. Swinging room is not an issue for shore tied boats, so they often have little concern letting out much more chain than a boat anchored conventionally. Very long scopes are not unusual.

Boats anchoring need to be careful not to pick up, and unset the anchor of shore tied boats.

If you do unseat their anchor it can rapidly cause an issue, as their stern is often very close to rocks.

 

[Roberto]

An anchor with a constant pull in one direction can.be trusted with the extra forces of a beam wind more than one which responds to the change by having to swing round.

Totally not sure.
A strong beam wind and the stern line/anchor line system can develop a force XX times bigger than a face wind. Same phenomenon as catenary sag, try to minimize it and and forces go to infinite and eventually break the cable; the power of trigs (better, hyperbolic sinh and cosh which are the base of catenary).
So only if you have an anchor holding XX times more in straight pull than after rotation, stern lines might be better, or with gentle winds

 

[RupertW]

Totally not sure.
A strong beam wind and the stern line/anchor line system can develop a force XX times bigger than a face wind. Same phenomenon as catenary sag, try to minimize it and and forces go to infinite and eventually break the cable; the power of trigs (better, hyperbolic sinh and cosh which are the base of catenary).
So only if you have an anchor holding XX times more in straight pull than after rotation, stern lines might be better, or with gentle winds

Once an anchor is set then sure but an anchor that is veering 40 degrees in a constant wind then has to deal with a wind shift may not keep resetting well. So although the force is bigger the well set anchor which never changes its angle is likely to be more secure.

 

[Roberto]

Once an anchor is set then sure but an anchor that is veering 40 degrees in a constant wind then has to deal with a wind shift may not keep resetting well. So although the force is bigger the well set anchor which never changes its angle is likely to be more secure.

*Likely* not being a number, personal opinions apply.
Not for me, strong wind on the beam with ropes ashore has been one of the major causes of anchorage messes I have met, myself some times ago, others later. A very strong reason to not do so or anchor away from anyone with such a setup when winds may come from abeam, to myself anyway
No need to bring out the maths about a 20kt wind on the beam being able to produce on the anchor the effects of a 60-100+kt wind on the bow, I suppose.
Also, in one case one may drag anchor, with lines ashore and a strong wind abeam the risks are rocks while hanging on shore lines, possibly taking a few near boats with you.

 

[Seven Spades]

Richard,

You are correct the red towel boat is completely in the wrong. However I think that you have to be pragmatic and accept that in tight anchorages people are going to tie up to the shore. It is simply less hassle to do the same.


However last year I saw an anchorage will every boat swinging and then a local came in at great speed and tied up the the shore ½ a boat length from a swinging boat. Several people berated the local but he was having none of it in the end the other boat had to move, which was sad as they had been there all day.