Is the secondhand boat market ever likely to rise again?

James W

James W

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Evening all,

I know the second hand yacht market is at rock bottom, with some ridiculous bargains to be had. That said, do you think it will ever recover? Is that well maintained bargain yacht you've just bought ever likely to rise in value, or is just a downward spiral for ever more, as fewer people buy secondhand yachts or go sailing?

I know we don't buy boats for capital gain, but it would be nice if they held their value at least.

Just a thought as I consider a new purchase.....
 
I doubt it.

More and more GRP everlasting boats being made and not getting scrapped. Oversupply will keep the market low.

Now, things are different with a wonderfully restored wooden boat ... Ok only kidding myself :)
 
The market is saturated with new and second hand yachts, production costs are falling, competition is high and the recession brought even more yachts on the market. In my opinion, yachts will be plentiful, strong supply and cheap second hand yachts for many years ahead.
 
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
The market is saturated with new and second hand yachts, production costs are falling, competition is high and the recession brought even more yachts on the market. In my opinion, yachts will be plentiful, strong supply and cheap second hand yachts for many years ahead.
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Yes I agree with that. I fear we have to see buying yachts as Revenue Expenditure not Capital Expenditure.
 
With Mobos,there are far too many mid range twin engined 30 year old boats that have been up for sale for literally years,hanging round the brokers lists like mill stones.
Yes the odd outstanding example will sell to some unbothered buyer and a few near derelict examples will eventually go priced as virtual projects.
Many just sit here,the owners just not bothered if they sell or unable to accept that the boats value has been on a downward spiral since the recession,
The buyers with the real folding money simply do not want an old boat.
One well known website has around 25 examples of the same model of boat on its pages.
 
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There are a few niches which I think will be insulated but everywhere else prices are only going to fall. I had a Mac28 which lost 40% in three years, bought it just before sub 30 footers plummeted in value. But boats that are wanted but not made anymore have a degree of ring fencing, smaller cruising multihulls for example should be relatively safe, likewise I think I accidentally bought a boat that is safe price wise - no one volume builds wheelhouse motorsailers but people want them. They're fiendishly expensive new.

Meanwhile Ben/Jen/Bav/Han etc are pumping out lookalike new boats, the market isn't getting bigger and the old ones aren't disappearing.
 
I doubt it, lots of new boats being made, none of the old ones are getting scrapped.

And age does play a factor, even a well maintained example will be worth less in ten years time, same with cars. You might find a 1992 Fiesta with low miles and in great condition, but it still won't be worth that much.
 
James W said:
Evening all,

I know the second hand yacht market is at rock bottom, with some ridiculous bargains to be had. That said, do you think it will ever recover? Is that well maintained bargain yacht you've just bought ever likely to rise in value, or is just a downward spiral for ever more, as fewer people buy secondhand yachts or go sailing?

I know we don't buy boats for capital gain, but it would be nice if they held their value at least.

Just a thought as I consider a new purchase.....
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I don't think yachts have ever been appreciating assets in real terms, ie after adjustment for inflation. What we did have for a while twenty odd years ago was that with depreciation and inflation rates fairly similar buying and subsequent selling values could be numerically the same.
 
Perhaps an 'underclass' of unolved boats will grow, passed from eBayer to eBayer, identified by the transom-mounted outboard and ragged sails, kept on rotting trailers or in the cheapest of berths up rivers and in drying harbours. These boats will never receive new inboards, never get new rigging, and never know what it is like to be a proper boat rather than a disfunctional dream and part-time garden shed.

Those boats who are kept up to a basic standard should, hopefully, remain at least as valuable as the latent value of their engine, rigging, sails, etc.
 
I'm not totally convinced the sub 30ft market has gone completely. Certainly prices have fallen dramatically but when I look at our club for example: Probably 100 or so boats, virtually all in the 20 - 30ft bracket, mostly from the 70's - 90's, swinging or pile moorings etc. We still get new owners (all ages) joining who have bought similar boats. Most of the boats are actively sailed and maintained. I'm sure our club is not unique, there must be hundreds(?) around the country.
Maybe these boats are being bought/sold on the free websites and by word of mouth.
 
Interesting that people are focussing on the vessels, not the buyers. The 30 somethings in many cases have yet to buy a property let alone a boat, and that is the major issue. Until / if we get back to a more sensible property market, buyers will be rare
 
So, with this all in mind, as I start to think about buying a larger boat than my current 23 foot trailer sailer do I go for the 30 footer that I eventually hope to own or go for a 26 footer 'in-between-er' as previously planned? My concern is that I may well be 'stuck' with the next boat. The 30 footer will take longer to save for (£20k say) whereas I've seen a few half decent 26ers for around the £10k mark of late.
 
Gladys said:
Interesting that people are focussing on the vessels, not the buyers. The 30 somethings in many cases have yet to buy a property let alone a boat, and that is the major issue. Until / if we get back to a more sensible property market, buyers will be rare
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There has been quantum change -as Larry points out. Youngsters can't afford a house and boats are way down their list. Remove the purchasers from any marketplace and it collapses.
I don't think prices will recover for smaller AWBs and will never come back for MABs.
So don't think of your boat as a financial asset but rather as something to enjoy and for which you'll pay through the nose.
The good news is that I find my 6/12 aboard in Greece costs 1/3rd of UK living and increases my enjoyment of life x2.
 
I bought my first boat around 18 months ago or so. I think the key to having something hold its value or appreciating, is to make sure you just get a bloody good deal in the first place. I've always done that with bikes, cars, houses etc... If you buy something that is a bargain, then you should be able to have it hold it's value over time.

Never bought the boat thinking that it will be an financial investment. I bought it thinking that it would give me fun, something to do, skills to learn, new people to meet and a base away from home.

People will always buy whatever boat you are selling if the price is low enough. I think I could probably sell my boat on ebay tomorrow and get what I paid for it, not taking into account the price of refurb work I've done and obviously all the labour has been done for free by myself and girlfriend.

On hindsight, from what I know now. I would either buy something that was nearly empty and needed full refurb for peanuts (like £3-5K mark) and then spend £10K or so on latest chart plotters, electronics, anchors, engine, coppercoat, self tailing winches, upholstery etc... OR I would increase my initial budget by £15K or so and buy something cheap that is much more well equiped in Gibraltar, S.Italy, France or Croatia and keep it over there.

Bought my boat when I had just turned 21 and it was either between that or a Ferrari 355 F1 with full ferrari service history, red with cream interior. I hate reminding myself of that though, as they are now selling for £150K ...
 
Have things changed that much?
The main difference from 15 years ago is lower inflation.
So a new(er) boat dropping its value in real terms now also loses in £££ terms.

Nice boats have always cost a lot secondhand and shedloads new.
 
alahol2 said:
I'm not totally convinced the sub 30ft market has gone completely. Certainly prices have fallen dramatically but when I look at our club for example: Probably 100 or so boats, virtually all in the 20 - 30ft bracket, mostly from the 70's - 90's, swinging or pile moorings etc. We still get new owners (all ages) joining who have bought similar boats. Most of the boats are actively sailed and maintained. I'm sure our club is not unique, there must be hundreds(?) around the country.
Maybe these boats are being bought/sold on the free websites and by word of mouth.
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It's not that no one is buying the sort of boats you talk about, rather they are not buying for the sort of prices that were being seen a few years ago. Price a boat competitively and it'll sell but that price today is somewhat less than it was say four years ago. And that general caveat applies across the market as a whole.

Where once there weren't really quite enough second hand boats to go round and buyers had spare cash, thus keeping prices high. Older makes had more meaning in the market because those folks who had the money remembered them with affection and hadn't been able to buy them new, so they now saw the opportunity to own their dream boat at a price they could afford. All of this drove second hand prices, along with the concept of progression in ownership: that is, buy a smaller yacht as an 'entry level' boat, sell that on a few years later and get something bigger and more up market and so on.

That market paradigm has been broken by two factors. The first is the lower real cost of new boats, which has come about because of decent volume production systems. This make new boats more affordable and therefore sees more of them being sold. The second is also tied into the first. Modern boats are simpler to sail. Their systems are designed to work easily and with minimal training, electronic navigation aides make it easy to find your way and modern engines are reliable and powerful enough to get you out of a hole. They are also more comfortable and family friendly than older boats. So what? Well, for the young family with cash to spare why buy a somewhat uncomfortable sub 30 foot old boat which will need money to upgrade it, when for not much more you can buy a sparkly new boat which will not need anything significant doing to it during the period of ownership? Especially when you learnt to sail on a 30-40 foot boat at a school and found out just how easy a modern boat is in terms of handling.

And this new yachting family doesn't regard the boat as an investment. It thinks of the boat as it would a car: an item to use and enjoy until it starts needing money spending on it at which point it will be sold for whatever the market will bear. The boat will either be replaced by a new one or the family will move on to another new toy.

I don't see this pattern changing in the medium term, as the drivers are all there and I don't see them changing.
 
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I think its cracking so many boats are available at such accessible prices. I've spoken to a number of people through business relationships who have taken RYA courses, crewed extensively for others and are toying with the idea, can afford a boat, however seem reluctant to take the step as they are worried they will stuff up being skipper. I tell them the best way to learn to sail is to go buy a boat and go sailing (and the best learning is when you make a mistake :) ) !
 
PhillM said:
I doubt it.

More and more GRP everlasting boats being made and not getting scrapped. Oversupply will keep the market low.

Now, things are different with a wonderfully restored wooden boat ... Ok only kidding myself :)
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Like this one here, you mean ?

I definitely would...

Boo2

51196772.jpg
 
This is a real guesstimate but I reckon there must be 1,000 new boats in the 32-42 foot size coming to the UK each year split between the Ben/Jen/Bav/Han/others - otherwise it's less than 200 for each manufacturer a year. So unless we gain 1,000 new boat owners a year then 1,000 boats a year need to be scrapped or we're flooding out the market - which means that the family sized AWB market is going to start dropping. Curiously the sub 30 footer market which dropped like a stone a few years ago is probably quite stable because no one makes volume sub 30 footers.
 
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