Is the ARC a ripoff ?

We had a great party when we arrived in Carlyle Bay, Barbados. We waited for the last boat to arrive in our group from Barbados and had a great time partying. We had a light hearted race across with some friends we met in Madeira. We cruised the Caribbean in company with them for the next 4 months. We really had our own ARC but on a smaller scale and no rules. We did the trip to get away from rules. We did however have all the safety gear you would find on any well prepared boat doing the trip.
 
I'm sure Martin would be up for that? maybe at The Barbados sailing association, great friendly little club.

Then a day at the (horse)races before departing for Trini, Venezuela?

How about a Christmas get together and leave from Santa Cruz, Teneriffe? Fantastic place over Christmas and New year, maybe leave after the hangover has settled and a short visit to Gomera? can't make it this year but probably next year.
 
in 2005 Hurricane Epsilon nearly wiped the whole shebang out.. There would be no arc now if a few degrees of hurricane course had added or subtracted.
Even Jimmy Cornell commented on the start dates (And HE started the damn thing)
There is NO safety in the arc, the things they tell people are covered in sub 20 squid books available from amazon..
To me, an old ludite lol, it is aimed at the yachty clubbie socialite types, seamanship is oft sheep tactics. Statistically the safer time to cross is december into Jan.. there are more boats out there then too if the need to be resued is paramount.. hmmmm....
I feel the same about the biscay triangle, organised channel crossings, blue water rallies etc.. I just cant accept a financial gain on the parts of "organisers" of such. yes, it gets people out, but in a somewhat devious way imho..
It is used as an excuse for poor seamanship, lack of confidence, lack of basic skill such as weather interpretation etc.
again, this IS MY HUMBLE OPINION... in general, not all it must be admitted, but in general, the people we meet on arcs, triangles, bwr´s etc are overly confident in their bubble of perceived security and preparedness but also oozing in their lack of actual understanding. There is definitely a market for this sort of thing, but a market it is, it is targetted commercialism the same as burglar alarm salesmen and sellers of cure all herbal medications.
 
This Bajan Barsteward would be only too happy to welcome you BARCers to Bimshire when you arrive in the New World!
Looks like Tigawave Neil and Caroldevon are already fairly keen on becoming Barcers next winter, and am sure there will be more........

Remember there is always an alternative to the sheep herd mentality, re just going out and doing your own thing. And if you are worried about the safety in numbers game, it is a motorway out there, albeit rather wide, hence why you dont often see the other boats overtaking you (or being overtaken by you!).
 
[ QUOTE ]
The attraction, of course, is the support & stuff such as seminars etc

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, the seminars are good but I think you can participate in those even if you are not in the ARC. There was a "seminar only" fee option in the Canaries when I passed there in 2005.
 
Well I am doing the ARC this year, and I think the whole principle is great. Split six ways (the crew count) the cost is not that much, and the folk who I have met so far also doing the ARC have all been very pleasant and enthusiastic. It seems to me that it must offer something positive since a load of the folk have done it several times - i.e. repeat customers... Personally I am looking forward to the parties as well /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
How do ARC yachts return?

What proportion of ARC boats are sailed back to Europe by their own crew? What happens to the others?

I've often wondered this as the return passage is harder than outgoing ... and without the support net.
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

This is an interesting question Dick. Very few I presume.
Also, it is apparant that the majority who are doing or have done the arc do so as crew, not as skipper, many places are hired out. most liveaboards sail as a two person crew, not as a crew of 6 on a jolly. Its value to future liveaboards is therefore highly dubious.
It seems more a means of a stamp in a book of "I did that!", one to tell bar stories over. mnay will say, as I have oft heard, I sailed the atlantic in xxxx, what they infer is they were in control, what they often mean is I sat there and let it all pass by with no reponsibilities. It usually only emerges later in the conversation. There are often small crews, they are the exceptions though.
Often the supposed experience is used to qualify for yottmeister... hmmmm...., another stamp of little value due to the diluted nature of the scheme and its lack of true skills reflection. Yes, I do have little respect for little white book qualifications. As with all things, there are always bold exceptions to all of this. to me it has become another commercial money earner and has become cosseted and nannyfied (sp)... not what JC intended at all. The size of boats has increased to allow more "paying guests" the organisers make money, many boat owners make a lot of money, one guy who I know carries up to 10 "guests" at 1500 squids a piece, all inclusive of course.. it pays for most of his other cruising. But this is not the spirit of sailing, this is a guesthouse mentality. Some gain the experience of an atlantic crossing to the same level as they would if they went by virgin airways and then sat at the bar and bragged about how they "flew" the atlantic.. they are passengers on the whole, not crew, not in control and not involved in any decision making process. How the aircraft returns is of as little importance to many as to how the boat returns. Many carry on and make money in the carribiean when the paying guests have gone home full of sea stories and salty experiences to relate to the yott club bar.
During one yachtmaster course the examiner allowed "experience" to be qualifying for yott meister from a guy who had crossed the atlantic as part of a 10 man watch, one of 3 ! on a tallship... there were 10 officers on board and 30 crew, along with cooks, engineers etc etc.. the next thing they will allow is qualifying passage on a cruise ship like Oriana. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

More than you'd think. I did the ARC in 2003, and ourselves, plus both our "neighbours" in Las Palmas sailed home. Interestingly, all the boats are the same size - 33'.
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

3 x 33' boats crossed the Atlantic on their own bottoms. Two crewed by a couple the other a young family.

Sure the ARC has its faults, but it does give you a deadline to work towards. Useful for ocean virgins, it is all too easy to think. "The boat's not ready I'll go next week" Where in reality, no boat is every ready!

Two best bits are the SSB radio net and the arrival in St Lucia.
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

A deadline to work to is the most dangerous thing you can do in sailing.
NOT useful for ocean virgins, not useful for anyone, WHOSE deadlines ? , the deadlines dont exist in ocean cruising, only in commercial mentality.. seamanship dictates deadlines as a non entity.

a VERY dangerous path to tread, and not the way to intiate a virgin, in any use of the term.

It is EXACTLY your mentality that I fight against Sir. sorry to be abrupt. but noo-ne dictates unless you need control.. outside control, like outside and remote weather forecasting kills more than it helps. make your own path in life, based on understanding. not someones whim or fantisy.

people NEEDING that level of control need to stay in the yott club drinking G&T´s and slice of ice.

A VERY unrealistic path to follow.
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

If you read my post, you'd see that the "deadly deadline" is something to work towards. Sure you can hang back if the weather on the scheduled day of departure isn't very nice.

Even long term cruisers have deadlines, do they not? I wouldn't want to to be in the Lesser Antilles during hurricane season do you?

Your statement that weather forecasting kills more than it saves, is IMHO bollocks. Indeed, the tone of your post leads me to believe that you have started on the G&T rather early in the day.

The ARC is not perfect. I know I had enough arguments with the organisers, but it does a good job on the whole. Don't knock it unless you've tried it. Misconception is a dangerous thing.
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

I do not think I have read such a pile of tosh in my life. 'guest house mentality', 'not in the spirit of sailing'. I had the great pleasure of crossing with the ARC, I delivered the yacht from the UK and collected the rest of the paying guests in The Canaries. One wanted to be able to say he had sailed the Atlantic and 'get a stamp in his book' and when he finished he never wanted to sail that distance again, one lady was planning to spend a season working in the Carribean, I wanted to find out if spending that long away from land suited me and the rest fancied a challenge. All of our reasons were valid and ALL were in the spirit of sailing and for you to say otherwise is inaccurate. I can also guarantee that all of the participants have stories to tell of their experience that they will remember for the rest of their lives.

It is a shame that in all walks of life people seem to find some excuse to deride and sneer at other peoples acheivements because they may not match their own ideas of what is worthwhile.

You even seem to object to people making a profit from sailing, what is wrong with earning money from doing something you love whilst giving other people the experience of a lifetime...virgins or not!
 
Re: How do ARC yachts return?

The initial concept of the ARC was an informal cruiser rally/race but throughout the years it has changed beyond all recognition. We have crossed the Atlantic several times and never with the ARC. In the late eighties we considered it but decided against as they definetly leave too early. We prefer arriving Canaries in early December and cross after Xmas.


The definition of cruising has changed also. When we started 30 years ago there were few cruising liveaboards. We were all similar trying to emulate our heros the Smeetons, Hiscocks etc and later the Pardys.
There are still a number of cruising boats in this vein and a number of them (myself included I must admit) occasionally look upon the "new" lot with some derision. However, in the old days because we were cruising we had a lot in common. This no longer applies as the cruising community has become as diverse as life. Just look at some of the postings on here.

Sailing has become easy and accessible for everyone and is no longer an exclusive club and the ARC reflects the changes. GPS has made it easy and people have money.

We love cruising and some of our most memorable parties have been in anchorages all over the world with old and new cruising friends. However, the ARC turns me cold with the "organised" events, seminars from "experts" and jobsworths inspections. No thank you. On top of that the entrant list nowadays looks full of very large expensive boats and charters.

One mans meat is another mans poison. One nice aspect of the ARC is that Las Palmas is empty after they leave and berths are easy to find. Similarly at the other end they have normally moved on when we arrive.
 
Smeeton, Hiscock et al

Ah, Mr Oz,
what a delight to read your post and the references to Miles Smeeton and Eric Hiscock.
As for emulating Miles, lol, yes in may ways, it is a dream, but I certainly dont want the experience of a more or less pitch pole in the southern oceaon approaching cape horn. (Once is Enough, Miles Smeeton, superb book), then after a self rebuild of both masts and rigging, rebuilding the doghouse etc, what hapens ?? the SAME thing.. poor beggars. If any have not read this classic, please do so.
Eric Hiscock is also great reading, in his later life he becomes very critical of "modern" society, he goes from an adventurer to a philosopher and criticiser, like Moitissier, almost on a different planet. His perception of nuclear power as the way forward to stop our self destruction etc... interesting reading of a spiral of change and conversion.. The Pardys I struggle with a wee bit, I must admit. Much more commercialism (Writing to make money) then to portray experiences.
Have you read much by Bernard Moitissier ?, fascinating, his drug induced journey is rather excellent to read, from early life, to the first round the world (Where he blew knox J away) to his exile in tahiti in a marijuana fuelled exploration of all things.
Sorry, off topic, but hey, some books just have to have a permenent place on my bookshelf.
Joe
 
ARC Good Value?

[ QUOTE ]
A deadline to work to is the most dangerous thing you can do in sailing.
NOT useful for ocean virgins, not useful for anyone, WHOSE deadlines ? , the deadlines dont exist in ocean cruising, only in commercial mentality.. seamanship dictates deadlines as a non entity.

a VERY dangerous path to tread, and not the way to intiate a virgin, in any use of the term.

It is EXACTLY your mentality that I fight against Sir. sorry to be abrupt. but noo-ne dictates unless you need control.. outside control, like outside and remote weather forecasting kills more than it helps. make your own path in life, based on understanding. not someones whim or fantisy.

people NEEDING that level of control need to stay in the yott club drinking G&T´s and slice of ice.

A VERY unrealistic path to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only shake my head at this kind of tosh. Sure rally deadlines have some disadvantages, but they also have advantages also and its totally wrong to just pick on one issue and base a decision on that alone.

I do have to wonder at the mentality of those who preach so hard against rallies - and NO - I don't have any commercial interest in any firm running one.

We've sailed lots of miles solo. Lots in company. Lots of races. But we've done 3 rallies as well - and we've enjoyed it all.

I would not think of preaching to those who prefer to go solo and attempt to influence their choice ....... but you have to be silly not to think a grouping of 200 yachts is as safe as setting off solo.

Bluntly put, if one thinks the ARC is a rip off then simply don't go on it. If you don't, then consider it.

But IMHO you should not be influenced by those with a one eyed view.

JOHN
 
Re: ARC Good Value?

I agree that others need not enter the ARC if they don't want to/can't afford the fees. What niggles me though is not the grumbles about the fees but the rather sneering, nostril view of some about the ARC and those who do join it to cross, whether for the first or the fifth time to cross. The ARC is convenient, and like most things that are convenient (particularly for those jobs and families to spend time with in the Carib), it costs a bit more than DIY. It's got very little to do with skipper or crew knowledge or preparation. Personally, I do feel a bit uneasy about the racing part but that's maybe because I preferred to cruise across (just as well, considering our time!). I'm also not sure that 80 ft "Invitation Class" entrants have a role to play. There's loads of other things I didn't like (barmy length of closing prize giving ceremony, arriving after most of the St Lucia events had taken place, as a smaller boat) But, overall, it's fine and for me, was worth it. It's rubbish to suggest it's a sailing in company event, full of horray Henrys who don't know how to sail long distances. That's about as accurate as suggesting that livaboards tend to be people who sit for months in some god-forsaken hole with neither the courage, the money or the boat to go to sea /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
The ARC, Biscay Triangle etc are "comfort blankets" for what I am sure is a substantial majoritty of boatowners who are deeply worried about sailing outside familiar territory that is preferably close to home. The old adage about the "experienced" yottie who has been sailing for 30 years but has had the same experience every year i.e. down to Ramsgate and back, applies more widely that we think. There was a recent piece in one of the mags about first time Channel crossers. I was amazed to see that although many of them had been sailing for years, they were clearly quite scared about making what others might regard as a milk run. My view is that if by paying to travel under the ARC or Triangle umbrellas these people build confidence in their abilities and are encouraged to make more ambitious voyages on their own, it can't be bad.
 
Re: ARC Good Value?

If you sit in Grenada a while you will meet Americans who are waiting for two or three other boats to join up with them so they can make the long and arduous voyage to Trinidad.... It is the longest 'offshore' passage they will have to make since leaving Florida to 'head for the islands'... And why not? Well if that's what they want and it makes them happy fine but it is a little odd - 'can't do 50 hours at sea without 'company' - 'help at hand'....

The danger with the ARC is that it persuades people who do not have the confidence/ability/experience whatever that all will be well because there is a 'mother hen' looking after them.... But why not? The only thing that really annoys me is that these blasted 'supervised Disney trips' take over whole harbours and ports and turf out individuals..... the power of the big organisations...

I got turfed out of Madeira once as I was preparing for a transatlantic. A fleet of little two handers supervised by a french navy patrol boat and a couple of bigger mother boats had booked the harbour ' seen the port captain all right' and I together with a couple of other blue water boats were turfed out onto a lousy anchorage trying to ferry stores in a small dinghy...

Had similar problems now and then in other countries with ARC type operations coming in and taking over.... It is a cynical exploitation of people who want to pretend they are independent, self sufficient, capable sailors by some organisations who are in it for profit and to hell with anybody who gets in their way.

Thank god there is the Jester Challenge....

Michael
 
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