ccscott49
Well-Known Member
If you need em' Bruv' you call em' you pay for it, no shame atall!
Viking
Well-Known Member
Copout? What price would you put on your families safety?
JerryHawkins
Well-Known Member
Are they still in business?
I'm not sure if Seastart are still in business. They certainly don't answer emails. I sent them one a few months ago and another the other day asking some questions about their service and I've heard nothing.
If they can't respond to a simple email from someone who wants to give them some money then I wouldn't trust them to respond when I needed their services.
Jerry
I'm not sure if Seastart are still in business. They certainly don't answer emails. I sent them one a few months ago and another the other day asking some questions about their service and I've heard nothing.
If they can't respond to a simple email from someone who wants to give them some money then I wouldn't trust them to respond when I needed their services.
Jerry
JerryHawkins
Well-Known Member
Yes they are!
I had a reply from their MD this afternoon!
Cheers,
Jerry
I had a reply from their MD this afternoon!
Cheers,
Jerry
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Re: Yes they are!
What a coincidence, Jerry....
Interesting thread, and 2 or 3 things come to mind: First, why should Seastart NOT be in it to make money - its what the rest of us spend most of our life doing. Economy allows very little room for philanthropy, apart from the anachronism of the RNLI. Which makes it all the more important that when we can, we buy in the services of professionals when things get beyond our skills rather than make demands on the voluntary time and resources of the RNLI - leaving them free for the real and life threatening emergencies.
I dont see anyone objecting to the not insubstantial profits of the AA or RAC - but would you expect to be able to call out the (free) ambulance service to fix your car on the Motorway?
What a coincidence, Jerry....
Interesting thread, and 2 or 3 things come to mind: First, why should Seastart NOT be in it to make money - its what the rest of us spend most of our life doing. Economy allows very little room for philanthropy, apart from the anachronism of the RNLI. Which makes it all the more important that when we can, we buy in the services of professionals when things get beyond our skills rather than make demands on the voluntary time and resources of the RNLI - leaving them free for the real and life threatening emergencies.
I dont see anyone objecting to the not insubstantial profits of the AA or RAC - but would you expect to be able to call out the (free) ambulance service to fix your car on the Motorway?
brianrunyard
Well-Known Member
Surely anything that can help is not a "Copout".
If it is, does it also mean a Lifejacket's a copout (as providing you are perfect, you wont need either!!!!).
Brian
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/brunyard
If it is, does it also mean a Lifejacket's a copout (as providing you are perfect, you wont need either!!!!).
Brian
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/brunyard
G
Guest
Guest
Keep Sailing Special
I know I appear to be in a minority of one, but I do feel that as sailors we are becoming too dominant on ‘others’ to see us home when things go wrong. This was recently amplified by Colin Jones ( a regular contributor to PBO) who in an article, requested help from the Coastguard as the engine in his motorsailor would not work start some miles off the South Coast in good sailing conditions. ( he was eventually towed home by the RNLI after radioing the Coastguard). This is someone who cruises for six months of the year.
I do accept that if we cannot fix engines ourselves ( very much the case for me ) someone will have to fix it for us – eventually . I can see the logic of an organisation like Seastart for motorboats and for sailing boats that have managed to sail close to home ‘ for the last bit’ but this again appears not to be the case. I am sure many sailors who use Seastart have more experience than I, but is it another step in the wrong direction for sailing freedom ? We always managed ok before ! Many daft RNLI call outs and hundreds of radio checks every weekend suggest to me that it is. My main concern is that it could lead to the situation where fellow yachtsman fail to assist each other ‘ cos he should be a member and have the means so cobblers to him’ (like it is on the roads now).
Sailing is too special for that.
I know I appear to be in a minority of one, but I do feel that as sailors we are becoming too dominant on ‘others’ to see us home when things go wrong. This was recently amplified by Colin Jones ( a regular contributor to PBO) who in an article, requested help from the Coastguard as the engine in his motorsailor would not work start some miles off the South Coast in good sailing conditions. ( he was eventually towed home by the RNLI after radioing the Coastguard). This is someone who cruises for six months of the year.
I do accept that if we cannot fix engines ourselves ( very much the case for me ) someone will have to fix it for us – eventually . I can see the logic of an organisation like Seastart for motorboats and for sailing boats that have managed to sail close to home ‘ for the last bit’ but this again appears not to be the case. I am sure many sailors who use Seastart have more experience than I, but is it another step in the wrong direction for sailing freedom ? We always managed ok before ! Many daft RNLI call outs and hundreds of radio checks every weekend suggest to me that it is. My main concern is that it could lead to the situation where fellow yachtsman fail to assist each other ‘ cos he should be a member and have the means so cobblers to him’ (like it is on the roads now).
Sailing is too special for that.
Gunfleet
Well-Known Member
Re: Keep Sailing Special
I don't think you're being fair to Colin Jones. Those waddly old Colvics are wind assisted motorboats, not sailing boats with big engines. 'Good sailing conditions' may have deteriorated and he wouldn't be able to make to windward at all. Then what?
I don't think you're being fair to Colin Jones. Those waddly old Colvics are wind assisted motorboats, not sailing boats with big engines. 'Good sailing conditions' may have deteriorated and he wouldn't be able to make to windward at all. Then what?
blackbird
Member
I still don\'t understand
The flaw in your argument is your persistant assumption that if something like this exists people must then use it unwisely. Does the insurance on your car make you any more careless about how you drive? Does membership of AA or RAC or Green Flag or whatever make you careless about how you look after your car? I suspect, in fact, that it's more likely people who join Seastart may be rather more than averagely responsible. They show they are aware of the potential problems involved in going to sea and the level of their own knowledge. They are certainly not the most likely people to be making irresponsible use of the CG and lifeboats. As far as helping each other out is concerned, with ever increasing numbers of boats around and more and fewer people coming into sailing by the traditional routes, it's inevitable that the "atmosphere" of the sailing world will change. Seastart may be a part of the "new order" but it's not the cause of it.
It's very easy to be sanctimonious about people who get into "trouble" that we ourselves feel we would have avoided, but I feel we should all keep in mind the adage about "walking a mile in the other person's shoes" before sitting in judgement, especially when we do not know the real circumstances. (That way, of course, you are a mile away before the trouble starts and you have their shoes!)
The flaw in your argument is your persistant assumption that if something like this exists people must then use it unwisely. Does the insurance on your car make you any more careless about how you drive? Does membership of AA or RAC or Green Flag or whatever make you careless about how you look after your car? I suspect, in fact, that it's more likely people who join Seastart may be rather more than averagely responsible. They show they are aware of the potential problems involved in going to sea and the level of their own knowledge. They are certainly not the most likely people to be making irresponsible use of the CG and lifeboats. As far as helping each other out is concerned, with ever increasing numbers of boats around and more and fewer people coming into sailing by the traditional routes, it's inevitable that the "atmosphere" of the sailing world will change. Seastart may be a part of the "new order" but it's not the cause of it.
It's very easy to be sanctimonious about people who get into "trouble" that we ourselves feel we would have avoided, but I feel we should all keep in mind the adage about "walking a mile in the other person's shoes" before sitting in judgement, especially when we do not know the real circumstances. (That way, of course, you are a mile away before the trouble starts and you have their shoes!)
ccscott49
Well-Known Member
Re: Keep Sailing Special
I agree with that, I know Colin and he would not have done that, unless he had to, was he in a shipping lane? was there no or little wind, where he was? Please don't sit in judgement over things you only have a few (published) facts about, I'm sure if he reads this, he is quite capable of defending his actions.
I agree with that, I know Colin and he would not have done that, unless he had to, was he in a shipping lane? was there no or little wind, where he was? Please don't sit in judgement over things you only have a few (published) facts about, I'm sure if he reads this, he is quite capable of defending his actions.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
It\'s all a Copout
Auxiliary engines, roller-reefing genoas, bermuda rig, keels, framed boats - how far back do you want to go Vic.
Dugouts and paddle power?
Anything that makes it easier and less risky has to be considered a cop-out.
I reckon you pays your money and takes your pick.
Seastart wasn't much good to me, this year, 11M NE of Cape Béar, in an unmasted boat when the tramontane started to blow and the screw got one of those Maxibags round it.
It took 53 minutes for my "Pan-pan" to get answered - by which time, being a devout coward, on a lee-shore, I'd made other arrangements.
Auxiliary engines, roller-reefing genoas, bermuda rig, keels, framed boats - how far back do you want to go Vic.
Dugouts and paddle power?
Anything that makes it easier and less risky has to be considered a cop-out.
I reckon you pays your money and takes your pick.
Seastart wasn't much good to me, this year, 11M NE of Cape Béar, in an unmasted boat when the tramontane started to blow and the screw got one of those Maxibags round it.
It took 53 minutes for my "Pan-pan" to get answered - by which time, being a devout coward, on a lee-shore, I'd made other arrangements.
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Re: I still don\'t understand
In an ideal world , Blackbird, I would agree with you. However I strongly and increasingly suspect the opposite to be true - just because there IS insurance to pick up the bill I think many drivers ARE more inclined to take the kind of chances I see them take on my way to and from the daily grind....
And certainly the cost of servicing the car is a great deal more than the annual sub to the AA or RAC - why else do the government insist that cars are MOTd annually? It wouldnt be necessary if we all maintained our vehicles 100%
Sailing is largely (though by no means exclusively) the preserve of those of us who are reasonably well off - look at the price of the average modern 30 footer - so that to call on the volunteers of the RNLI to resolve a non-life threatening situation rather than paying for the services of an engineer seems a bit mean.
All of us who use the sea whether for recreation or trade know that the sea itself is the master: however carefully we may prepare, it can always come up with something new, and I for one am immensly grateful to the williness of the RNLI's crews to turn out regardless should it get the better of me. In the meantime I make it my business to ensure my boat and I are fully prepared - and if that means paying a boat buiulder to do a repair for which I lack the skill, or Seastart to sort an engine that has failed, then whats the problem?
Modern recreational sailing is radically different to what it was 40 or 50 years ago, and the skills required for modern yacht repair and maintenance require a much higher degree of specific technical competences and skill.
Basic seamanship does not change - but the boats we use have changed radically.
In an ideal world , Blackbird, I would agree with you. However I strongly and increasingly suspect the opposite to be true - just because there IS insurance to pick up the bill I think many drivers ARE more inclined to take the kind of chances I see them take on my way to and from the daily grind....
And certainly the cost of servicing the car is a great deal more than the annual sub to the AA or RAC - why else do the government insist that cars are MOTd annually? It wouldnt be necessary if we all maintained our vehicles 100%
Sailing is largely (though by no means exclusively) the preserve of those of us who are reasonably well off - look at the price of the average modern 30 footer - so that to call on the volunteers of the RNLI to resolve a non-life threatening situation rather than paying for the services of an engineer seems a bit mean.
All of us who use the sea whether for recreation or trade know that the sea itself is the master: however carefully we may prepare, it can always come up with something new, and I for one am immensly grateful to the williness of the RNLI's crews to turn out regardless should it get the better of me. In the meantime I make it my business to ensure my boat and I are fully prepared - and if that means paying a boat buiulder to do a repair for which I lack the skill, or Seastart to sort an engine that has failed, then whats the problem?
Modern recreational sailing is radically different to what it was 40 or 50 years ago, and the skills required for modern yacht repair and maintenance require a much higher degree of specific technical competences and skill.
Basic seamanship does not change - but the boats we use have changed radically.
blackbird
Member
Some big assumptions there
You see people every day who are taking chances in their cars because they know they have insurance? How can you possibly know that? Do you stop and question them all about their insurance cover and it's impact on their driving behaviour? I would be willing to bet you would find a higher proportion than usual amongst those drivers that didn't have insurance, or only had third party cover. I can't know that either, of course, but that assumption is at least as valid as yours.
The more people take to driving the more silly, selfish and careless drivers there will be on the roads. The more people that take to sailing the more silly, selfish and careless people there will be on the water. As you say, sailing is getting more hi tech all the time, so responsible water users take whatever precautions they think wise. The existence of silly people is not causally linked with the existence of services to help people deal with their hi tech (or, in my case, lo tech) gear. If it's OK to consult a marine engineer ashore or accept a tow from a friend or fishing boat then I am at a loss to understand why it is not OK to consult a marine engineer whilst afloat or accept a tow from a commercial service if the need should arise.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by blackbird on 05/08/2002 12:18 (server time).</FONT></P>
You see people every day who are taking chances in their cars because they know they have insurance? How can you possibly know that? Do you stop and question them all about their insurance cover and it's impact on their driving behaviour? I would be willing to bet you would find a higher proportion than usual amongst those drivers that didn't have insurance, or only had third party cover. I can't know that either, of course, but that assumption is at least as valid as yours.
The more people take to driving the more silly, selfish and careless drivers there will be on the roads. The more people that take to sailing the more silly, selfish and careless people there will be on the water. As you say, sailing is getting more hi tech all the time, so responsible water users take whatever precautions they think wise. The existence of silly people is not causally linked with the existence of services to help people deal with their hi tech (or, in my case, lo tech) gear. If it's OK to consult a marine engineer ashore or accept a tow from a friend or fishing boat then I am at a loss to understand why it is not OK to consult a marine engineer whilst afloat or accept a tow from a commercial service if the need should arise.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by blackbird on 05/08/2002 12:18 (server time).</FONT></P>
tome
Well-Known Member
Bilmey, what a thread!
On my sailing boat I maintain my own engine and reckon I can fix anything short of catastrophic failures, so am not a member of Seastart. If I couldn't I would not hesitate to join for the reassurance it would give and don't see anything wrong in this except that it might limit my 'peace of mind' cruising area to that served by Seastart. I'd definitely recommend an engine maintenance course as a first step before deciding whether to join, as I don't believe you can beat independence.
It's true that the Solent has some special rules and large vessels which limit the scope for sailing in the event of an engine failure, but unless you're becalmed in a shipping lane it's almost always possible to make for alternative refuges in a sailing boat to sort out the problem or seek a tow. We once anchored off Chichester harbour after the engine had blown (in Spain) and we were becalmed. We were waiting for some wind when somebody offered us a tow, which we gratefully accepted.
An RNLI lifeboat out on an excercise from Littlehampton had first come over to offer us a tow and we politely refused - only because we'd have been embarassed to be towed in by them! This may seem absurd, but out of respect for this excellent organisation I'd only want to use them if life was in danger. In common with most reasonable sailors I hate to see them out towing in boats which don't appear to be in any danger. Much better to join Seastart than to rely on the RNLI as a get-you-home service. All, of course, IMHO.
On my sailing boat I maintain my own engine and reckon I can fix anything short of catastrophic failures, so am not a member of Seastart. If I couldn't I would not hesitate to join for the reassurance it would give and don't see anything wrong in this except that it might limit my 'peace of mind' cruising area to that served by Seastart. I'd definitely recommend an engine maintenance course as a first step before deciding whether to join, as I don't believe you can beat independence.
It's true that the Solent has some special rules and large vessels which limit the scope for sailing in the event of an engine failure, but unless you're becalmed in a shipping lane it's almost always possible to make for alternative refuges in a sailing boat to sort out the problem or seek a tow. We once anchored off Chichester harbour after the engine had blown (in Spain) and we were becalmed. We were waiting for some wind when somebody offered us a tow, which we gratefully accepted.
An RNLI lifeboat out on an excercise from Littlehampton had first come over to offer us a tow and we politely refused - only because we'd have been embarassed to be towed in by them! This may seem absurd, but out of respect for this excellent organisation I'd only want to use them if life was in danger. In common with most reasonable sailors I hate to see them out towing in boats which don't appear to be in any danger. Much better to join Seastart than to rely on the RNLI as a get-you-home service. All, of course, IMHO.
Mirelle
N/A
Ships, anyone?
Except for ferries, etc which are restricted in the height of their engine room, (because of the car decks) and cruise ships and small coasters, most ships have a two stroke diesel engine direct coupled to the propeller so that prop speed = engine speed and to reverse you reverse the engine. Been that way for many years now, 7,000bhp per cylinder and 12 cylinders in a big containership. They very seldom break down...
Except for ferries, etc which are restricted in the height of their engine room, (because of the car decks) and cruise ships and small coasters, most ships have a two stroke diesel engine direct coupled to the propeller so that prop speed = engine speed and to reverse you reverse the engine. Been that way for many years now, 7,000bhp per cylinder and 12 cylinders in a big containership. They very seldom break down...
G
Guest
Guest
Roll over Josh Slocum
and McMullen, F.B. Cooke, etc etc
I think they might have a good laugh at us all if they could speak.
It may be very prudent for us to have all the safety stuff in this day and age ( I have a fair share of it myself) but no one seems to come from a cruise saying what a great adventure it has been.
There is more talk of bad weather, humming noises from the shaft at 2000 revs and wash from motorboats, and yes stories in PBO about how I got towed home when my engine packed up.
There are still cruising boats on the East Coast that set off with no engines at all god bless em....
Blackbird ! Have you never felt like being a ' Red Hot biker babe' ? Just for a week anyway....
Have we along the way lost the capacity to enjoy an adventure ? I think we have. It got lost in all the sense and sensibility that we now feel we have to carry with us.
Remember- time's running out.
and McMullen, F.B. Cooke, etc etc
I think they might have a good laugh at us all if they could speak.
It may be very prudent for us to have all the safety stuff in this day and age ( I have a fair share of it myself) but no one seems to come from a cruise saying what a great adventure it has been.
There is more talk of bad weather, humming noises from the shaft at 2000 revs and wash from motorboats, and yes stories in PBO about how I got towed home when my engine packed up.
There are still cruising boats on the East Coast that set off with no engines at all god bless em....
Blackbird ! Have you never felt like being a ' Red Hot biker babe' ? Just for a week anyway....
Have we along the way lost the capacity to enjoy an adventure ? I think we have. It got lost in all the sense and sensibility that we now feel we have to carry with us.
Remember- time's running out.
G
Guest
Guest
Yikes ! Mast Falling down !
Just has to be the worst thing to happen - particularly in a blow . That's a story that I'd like to hear more about.
Mind you ! you will keep plodding that Biscay Beat on you're Jack Jones you irresponsible retired type person that you are !
You are a brave man Sir.
Just has to be the worst thing to happen - particularly in a blow . That's a story that I'd like to hear more about.
Mind you ! you will keep plodding that Biscay Beat on you're Jack Jones you irresponsible retired type person that you are !
You are a brave man Sir.
Mirelle
N/A
Having got into quite a bit of trouble, over time,
what with groundings, minor fires, torn sails, lost dinghies, crew going OB, broken rudders and downright silly accidents like losing the mainsheet because I had forgotten to put a figure 8 knot in the end (this is very embassassing and quite difficult to sort out!) when I was starting to sail, and I am not sure that I have got better with age (I hit the Deben bar yesterday, trying to get in too early on the flood and sailing witha dud echosounder, and sat on it for thirty minutes (I should never had scrapped the Seafarer 3, and YES I DO HAVE A LEADLINE AND CAN USE IT)and I have only been sailing out of it for 18 years!) I am reluctant to sit in judgement, but I am firmly of Vic's persuasion.
Sailing is actually a very safe sport, but one which, because it involves feelings of being "alone on a wide, wide sea" seems dangerous.
Taking your driving analogy, I am quite sure that when my late father set off in 1960 to drive from Mogadishu to Nairobi, without a radio but in a Land Rover, he had prepared his car a great deal better than I do when I drive to the supermarket!
what with groundings, minor fires, torn sails, lost dinghies, crew going OB, broken rudders and downright silly accidents like losing the mainsheet because I had forgotten to put a figure 8 knot in the end (this is very embassassing and quite difficult to sort out!) when I was starting to sail, and I am not sure that I have got better with age (I hit the Deben bar yesterday, trying to get in too early on the flood and sailing witha dud echosounder, and sat on it for thirty minutes (I should never had scrapped the Seafarer 3, and YES I DO HAVE A LEADLINE AND CAN USE IT)and I have only been sailing out of it for 18 years!) I am reluctant to sit in judgement, but I am firmly of Vic's persuasion.
Sailing is actually a very safe sport, but one which, because it involves feelings of being "alone on a wide, wide sea" seems dangerous.
Taking your driving analogy, I am quite sure that when my late father set off in 1960 to drive from Mogadishu to Nairobi, without a radio but in a Land Rover, he had prepared his car a great deal better than I do when I drive to the supermarket!
blackbird
Member
Big leaps
You are a great one for them, it seems, Vic. Whatever will you read next into a simple thing like subscribing to Seastart? Do you have a roller headsail? Yes? Where is your sense of adventure on a heaving foredeck, man? You have an engine? For heaven's sake! You are supposed to be a sailor! Take a chance, man! You have a radio? My God! How Slocum must be laughing at you! I certainly hope you don't have GPS. My goodness - help from man made satellites rather than the heavenly bodies? Tilman is turning in his grave! You would rather have two metres accuracy than two miles? Where's the fun in that?
Come on, Vic. Singlehanding my small, elderly boat all down the Atlantic coast of Europe (Baltic to Spain) as I did a few years ago is adventure enough for me. And when I'm weekending with the kids and clients waiting to see me on Monday morning and with a limited skill with engines (supplemented, I may say, with the excellent RYA diesel course some years ago) then I'm pleased to have that extra bit of help available if I need it.
And, of course, my boat is rather more fully prepared for Biscay than a saunter round to the next river. Insurance has nothing to do with it.
This isn't really about Seastart, though, is it? It's about a huge cultural change in the sailing scene that has happened your sailing lifetime and certainly in mine. Fact is, if it is that, which I'm sure it is, I know full well what you are talking about. But I suspect you make use of many of the other inventions and developments that are part of that change, so why rubbish people who may have taken one step you have declined? As Charles Reed points out, where do you draw the line?
You are a great one for them, it seems, Vic. Whatever will you read next into a simple thing like subscribing to Seastart? Do you have a roller headsail? Yes? Where is your sense of adventure on a heaving foredeck, man? You have an engine? For heaven's sake! You are supposed to be a sailor! Take a chance, man! You have a radio? My God! How Slocum must be laughing at you! I certainly hope you don't have GPS. My goodness - help from man made satellites rather than the heavenly bodies? Tilman is turning in his grave! You would rather have two metres accuracy than two miles? Where's the fun in that?
Come on, Vic. Singlehanding my small, elderly boat all down the Atlantic coast of Europe (Baltic to Spain) as I did a few years ago is adventure enough for me. And when I'm weekending with the kids and clients waiting to see me on Monday morning and with a limited skill with engines (supplemented, I may say, with the excellent RYA diesel course some years ago) then I'm pleased to have that extra bit of help available if I need it.
And, of course, my boat is rather more fully prepared for Biscay than a saunter round to the next river. Insurance has nothing to do with it.
This isn't really about Seastart, though, is it? It's about a huge cultural change in the sailing scene that has happened your sailing lifetime and certainly in mine. Fact is, if it is that, which I'm sure it is, I know full well what you are talking about. But I suspect you make use of many of the other inventions and developments that are part of that change, so why rubbish people who may have taken one step you have declined? As Charles Reed points out, where do you draw the line?
oldharry
Well-Known Member
Re: Some big assumptions there
Agree entriely Blackbird - and I strongly suspect its the worst drivers who have the least insurance cover. But I used that example only to make a point.
As to your second comment - I think we are arguing from the same side - I am all for organisations such as Seastart who take the pressure off the emergency services. It seemed that there are some who see it rather differently in this thread, and object to the Seastart gentlemen making a living from people who get into difficulty at sea. I can see no valid difference between Seastart and the AA or RAC breakdown service. Engine failure on the motorway can be just as dangerous as at sea, but there is no free get you home service there - except in an ambulance when an accident has occurred. In the same way we should surely not EXPECT to be got out of trouble by the freely given time and service of the RNLI, when an engineers services are available for a fee - unless the situation is complicated by other more immediate dangers.
Agree entriely Blackbird - and I strongly suspect its the worst drivers who have the least insurance cover. But I used that example only to make a point.
As to your second comment - I think we are arguing from the same side - I am all for organisations such as Seastart who take the pressure off the emergency services. It seemed that there are some who see it rather differently in this thread, and object to the Seastart gentlemen making a living from people who get into difficulty at sea. I can see no valid difference between Seastart and the AA or RAC breakdown service. Engine failure on the motorway can be just as dangerous as at sea, but there is no free get you home service there - except in an ambulance when an accident has occurred. In the same way we should surely not EXPECT to be got out of trouble by the freely given time and service of the RNLI, when an engineers services are available for a fee - unless the situation is complicated by other more immediate dangers.
