Is Red now dead asks a voice from the temporary grave

B

BrendanChandler

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www.brendanchandleryachtdelivery.co.uk
Hi,
I have been sailing away and am now arranging a trip from UK to Madeira.

Has red diesel died in my absence? If so presumablly we pay say rate as cars?

If not, roughly, what is the current price of marine diesel?

INCIDENTALLY, I need a crew member from Isle of Man to South West Ireland (Kinsale and lovely Baltimore) to Madeira next month.

Brendan
 
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BrendanChandler said:
Hi,
Has red diesel died in my absence? If so presumablly we pay say rate as cars?
Brendan
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No, and no, we often have to pay more.

Red diesel remains available to recreational mariners, but they have to be able to show that they have paid VAT on it. However, for some unfathomable reason carrying red diesel in spare cans is frowned on.

In some places this results in yachties paying more for red diesel than road users have to pay for white diesel.

So why use red at all? Because it has different viscosity and lubricant properties to road diesel, and the latter may not be suitable for some marine engines.
 
When you buy diesel in a marina you will be asked to sign a declaration regarding how much is used for running the eber and battery charging (VAT free) and how much is used for propulsion (VAT'd). The "norm" is 40:60 and no questions asked.

price similar to road diesel
 
Ummmmm -

MoodySabre said:
When you buy diesel in a marina you will be asked to sign a declaration regarding how much is used for running the eber and battery charging (VAT free) and how much is used for propulsion (VAT'd). The "norm" is 40:60 and no questions asked.

price similar to road diesel
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not wishing to be pedantic, the distinction is how much duty you will have to pay.
VAT is 5% for both Red used for "domestic" purposes or for propulsion purposes.

The duty is 10p/l for domestic and 50 something for propulsion. The idea methinks was to discourage folks from buying road fuel from filling stations and carrying it around in jerry-cans. Not a real option for large boats, but I'm noticing a lot of smaller boats with an array of cans on their decks.
 
..........So why use red at all? Because it has different viscosity and lubricant properties to road diesel, and the latter may not be suitable for some marine engines.
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Please if you are going to make such statements - please check facts first.

The base diesel for red has evolved since the 0.2 sulphur days and is now at 0.1 sulphur and reducing in another step soon. It is intended that eventually there will be no difference between the two diesels.
There are times when road ULSD has failed a test and is downgraded for other use - so there are occasional times you may be running your precious Beta / Volvo / Perkins etc. etc. on a much lower sulphur blend where different stocks have been mixed. Rare - but happens.

We blend Industrial / Heating / Agricultural and Road diesel - in fact near all blends including the Bio blends ... so shoot me if you like - but I haven't read / heard one article yet in any mag that hits the nail square in fact. Too often they are written based on info given by those with most to lose.
 
Which Diesel ? Refueller

I appreciate that you are an expert and know this business, so am I right to understand that from an engine protection,and long winter storage point of view I may as well use road diesel now that the local marina 60/40 price is within a penny or two of the roadside pumps (or dearer if you go to Croabh Haven) or have I misinterpreted. Is the difference now negligible, I used to think road diesel must be better until I read about a storage issue arising from Bio-diesel
I am not bothered about the silly regs. about storage in cans but about convenience and what is best to put through these relatively simple non turbo small yacht engines.
 
Refueler said:
Please if you are going to make such statements - please check facts first.
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I stand corrected, and would appreciate advice on an authoritative source against which to check such facts.

In the meantime I'll carry on repeating on Scuttlebutt what I've read in YM etc, in the sure knowledge that if I'm wrong some kind soul will put me right.:)

Edit: The above doesn't read quite the way it was intended - I don't of course believe everything I read - what I was trying to get at was the Popperian notion that conjecture plus refutation equals progress.
 
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Using road diesel

We have bought a new Beta 38 engine and are now having it installed. As road diesel is apparently sometimes cheaper than red, in places, I wondered about running the new engine on white. So I phoned Beta. The people there have been very helpful.

Beta states that there is absolutely no problem in running one of its engines on road diesel. I have also been told that, arguably, white diesel may be better than red as it is generally stored for a much shorter period. Red diesel, kept in tanks filled rather infrequently, often has more water and bugs in it.
 
One small inconvenience of the 60/40 split business, when buying fuel, is that one needs an attendant to record the transaction and therefore purchases are a manual affair only available during "work" hours. Whereas, nearly all marinas in France etc. use Card Machines that can be used without attendants and are available 24/7. Why must our government make everything complicated and therefore more expensive?
 
Ok ... lets put this to bed ...

Previously 0.2 sulphur diesel was the standard for ALL usual diesel use once sulp[hur extraction had come into use. Prior the diesel could be 0.5% or even higher ... making it particularly un-environmental. The 0.2% level was accepted for may years and developed into the green, blue and red varieties among others. There was little difference whatsoever other than colour.
With reduction of sulphur road diesel became a grade in it's own right ... going through the 100, 50, 30ppm Sulphur grades over time ... till now you see 10ppm and less. It was necessary to pep the fuel up a touch with lubricity additive to stop it drying out certain pump seals etc. but generally it was OK. It was also during that period that the two diesels separated in Cetane values ... the road having a higher value and therefore more "oomph !"

So the story condensed down for general - is that really therte should be no problem for most engines to run either. I for example run a vintage 4-107 Perkins unmodified on whatever I can get hold of via my lab !! It can be straight ULSD 10ppm, Bio, Heating Oil, 0.2% industrial diesel ... in fact any component we use in diesel blending, even LCO. It doesn't care.
For a later closer tolerance engine - you can use either red or road ... both are applicable fuels.

Final point - ignore the Bio rubbish you read - much road diesel now has 5% Bio in UK, and higher in other locations ... you can get 7% in France. many Motor factories have had to revise their previously self-protective clauses accordingly !!
 
Refueler said:
So the story condensed down for general - is that really therte should be no problem for most engines to run either.
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Vey useful information, particularly because there are places in which one has to pay more for red diesel than for road diesel.

(My statement is based on hearsay. The last time I bought red diesel in the UK - in Tobermory in June - it was about 10p per litre cheaper than road diesel.)
 
The quick answer to your question is that red cost about .75p per litre in south coats marinas if you declare 60/40 split. 60% being for propulsion (normal road rate) and the rest heating and battery charging. If you declare 60/40 use you wont be asked at a later date to justify the 40%.
 
cliffordpope said:
Is Red from a farmer's pump at the local garage the same red as from a marine outlet?
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It should be. The only marine diesel that is different is the MDO and heavier varieties that you shouldn't run. But you wouldn't get those via any marina pump !

Red diesel is actually Industrial Diesel .... and covers a wide range of uses ... it is not specific to boating.
 
Refueler said:
It should be. The only marine diesel that is different is the MDO and heavier varieties that you shouldn't run. But you wouldn't get those via any marina pump !

Red diesel is actually Industrial Diesel .... and covers a wide range of uses ... it is not specific to boating.
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Thanks for the information, it has cleared up some questions I've wondered about.

One further question does the length of time the diesel has been stored affect it. Does it go stale.
 
Captn D said:
One small inconvenience of the 60/40 split business, when buying fuel, is that one needs an attendant to record the transaction and therefore purchases are a manual affair only available during "work" hours. Whereas, nearly all marinas in France etc. use Card Machines that can be used without attendants and are available 24/7. Why must our government make everything complicated and therefore more expensive?
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I have filled up 2 times this year, once in Gosprot, and once in Brixham. At neither place was I required to sign anything re the standard 60/40 split.

Thank God the Customs and Excise did this arrangement, otherwise we would be paying considerably more for our diesel.
 
Diesel price

We were pleased to see diesel from either the normal pump or the roadside tanker man in Weymouth was only £0.54.litre. A big contrast with Falmouth where the headline rate was £1.25/litre - on closer reading that was the propulsion rate with £0.75 for heating - still b. expensive!

Cowes floating pumps were happy to sell it at any ratio of heating/propulsion if the declaration is signed. As we are nearing the end of the season, a higher ratio of heating makes more sense... IIRC it ended up at about £0.75/litre.

Cheers
 
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