Is it time we outlawed these lifejackets?

[mainsail]

I had a very interesting "Sea Check" session with our local RNLI examiner the other day.

Amongst other things he pulled my lfejackets apart and noted that a brand new one bought just the other day had only a year to go before the expiry date on the CO2 container. How can this possibly be allowed on safety-critical kit?.

He also pointed out that it wasn't equipped with a crotch strap. How can it possibly be legal to sell a lifejacket without a crotch strap?

One of lifejackets on board is a manual - so you need to be conscious and alert enough to remember to pull the cord when you fall in . The others are all Halkey-Roberts salt-tablet automatics designed to inflate within three seconds of falling in - but a lot can happen in three seconds .

He explained that most of the incidents to which the RNLI is called where someone has fallen in the water (admittedly usually without lifejackets) - it's usually the case that unless they've been sighted afloat after falling in then - almost inevitably - they'll have drowned because of the gasping reflex which happens after immersion.

Because some lifejackets need to be fired manually -(by a casualty who's still alert enough to pull that cord) and because some lifejackets don't have crotch straps (to stop them riding up), and because many don't have D rings (which enable you to clip on a safety line in the first place) is it time to make the selling of non-full-featured and close to expiry lifejackets illegal?

 

[Seajet]

Well, it wasn't expired, was it ?

The cannister should be checked annually anyway, so the most you can really moan about is a few years use lost, but it wasn't sold in an unuseable condition, and may have been at discount price ?

'Lifejackets with D rings' are in my book a safety harness which happens to have a lifejacket as strictly Plan B.

There are some occasions when a manual lifejacket is prefereable; ie situations when if a lifejacket auto-inflated it would trap the wearer; this particularly applies to private aircraft ditching ( commercial aircraft usually have very cheap & nasty lifejackets ) or possibly if one is inside a boat's cabin etc.

The lack of a crotch strap is indeed surprising, something which could have been commented on when buying or taking delivery. It must be pointed out though that in the real world people often find these an encumbrance, only securing them when things start to get serious; you may not agree, but as I say that's the real world, not the holier than thou RNLI's ( who don't wear harnesses even on deck at night).

It might be more useful for the RNLI chap to point out personal lights and spume visors, or lack therof.

 

[Fire99]

Things like CO2 cannisters are unfortunately consumables IMO and it's down to the buyer to check. Nothing stopping you opening up the life jacket, when you buy it, and check the cannister date.

How long has the life jacket been on the 'hooks' in the shop?

The rest is down to personal choice. It's your life and IMO it's your job to find out what is best for you to wear around your neck, incase you hit the 'drink'.

Some folk don't like wearing one at all. The RNLI are very Pro Life Jacket and in many ways rightly so, but that doesn't mean all kit they don't like should be outlawed.

 

[charles_reed]

Well, it wasn't expired, was it ?

The cannister should be checked annually anyway, so the most you can really moan about is a few years use lost, but it wasn't sold in an unuseable condition, and may have been at discount price ?

'Lifejackets with D rings' are in my book a safety harness which happens to have a lifejacket as strictly Plan B.

There are some occasions when a manual lifejacket is prefereable; ie situations when if a lifejacket auto-inflated it would trap the wearer; this particularly applies to private aircraft ditching ( commercial aircraft usually have very cheap & nasty lifejackets ) or possibly if one is inside a boat's cabin etc.

The lack of a crotch strap is indeed surprising, something which could have been commented on when buying or taking delivery. It must be pointed out though that in the real world people often find these an encumbrance, only securing them when things start to get serious; you may not agree, but as I say that's the real world, not the holier than thou RNLI's ( who don't wear harnesses even on deck at night).

It might be more useful for the RNLI chap to point out personal lights and spume visors, or lack therof.

This actually happened to me - most embarassing - trouble is , it wasn't an auto-inflate LJ, but a manual one.

 

[rivonia]

I had a very interesting "Sea Check" session with our local RNLI examiner the other day.

Amongst other things he pulled my lfejackets apart and noted that a brand new one bought just the other day had only a year to go before the expiry date on the CO2 container. How can this possibly be allowed on safety-critical kit?.

He also pointed out that it wasn't equipped with a crotch strap. How can it possibly be legal to sell a lifejacket without a crotch strap?

One of lifejackets on board is a manual - so you need to be conscious and alert enough to remember to pull the cord when you fall in . The others are all Halkey-Roberts salt-tablet automatics designed to inflate within three seconds of falling in - but a lot can happen in three seconds .

He explained that most of the incidents to which the RNLI is called where someone has fallen in the water (admittedly usually without lifejackets) - it's usually the case that unless they've been sighted afloat after falling in then - almost inevitably - they'll have drowned because of the gasping reflex which happens after immersion.

Because some lifejackets need to be fired manually -(by a casualty who's still alert enough to pull that cord) and because some lifejackets don't have crotch straps (to stop them riding up), and because many don't have D rings (which enable you to clip on a safety line in the first place) is it time to make the selling of non-full-featured and close to expiry lifejackets illegal?

Phew a good job that someone DID check as it would have been a disaster if use was required in real time. I realy lament when I hear of anyone who has a life jacket without a crotch strap. We actually ordered ours direct when we purchased them new 279 newton,
when checked on receipt all was up to date and correct.

Peter

 

[gerry99]

I struggle to see how a CO2 canister can have an expiry date. I can readily accept that my Hammar Auto-firing mechanism can degrade but the CO2 canister, if looked afer well, is a totally sealed and inert object, what is there about it to degrade apart from the surface? It is after all a glorified "Sparklets" soda syphon bulb

 

[l'escargot]

I had a very interesting "Sea Check" session with our local RNLI examiner the other day.

Amongst other things he pulled my lfejackets apart and noted that a brand new one bought just the other day had only a year to go before the expiry date on the CO2 container. How can this possibly be allowed on safety-critical kit?.

He also pointed out that it wasn't equipped with a crotch strap. How can it possibly be legal to sell a lifejacket without a crotch strap?

One of lifejackets on board is a manual - so you need to be conscious and alert enough to remember to pull the cord when you fall in . The others are all Halkey-Roberts salt-tablet automatics designed to inflate within three seconds of falling in - but a lot can happen in three seconds .

He explained that most of the incidents to which the RNLI is called where someone has fallen in the water (admittedly usually without lifejackets) - it's usually the case that unless they've been sighted afloat after falling in then - almost inevitably - they'll have drowned because of the gasping reflex which happens after immersion.

Because some lifejackets need to be fired manually -(by a casualty who's still alert enough to pull that cord) and because some lifejackets don't have crotch straps (to stop them riding up), and because many don't have D rings (which enable you to clip on a safety line in the first place) is it time to make the selling of non-full-featured and close to expiry lifejackets illegal?

I think you are having a little Troll aren't you?

 

[Talulah]

The rest is down to personal choice. It's your life and IMO it's your job to find out what is best for you to wear around your neck, incase you hit the 'drink'.

Whilst it is personal choice when buying a life jacket Joe public is unaware of what life jackets are provided on charter or training boats. I would like to see auto life jackets compulsory on coded boats. Once someone goes over conscious or not the last thing on their mind will be to pull a toggle. However, manual life jackets are much cheaper, don't have a trigger mechanism with an expiry date so I suspect it is a case of money being the key factor. It may also be because there just isn't a problem necessitating anything more than a basic life jacket in the first place.

 

[Fire99]

Whilst it is personal choice when buying a life jacket Joe public is unaware of what life jackets are provided on charter or training boats. I would like to see auto life jackets compulsory on coded boats. Once someone goes over conscious or not the last thing on their mind will be to pull a toggle. However, manual life jackets are much cheaper, don't have a trigger mechanism with an expiry date so I suspect it is a case of money being the key factor. It may also be because there just isn't a problem necessitating anything more than a basic life jacket in the first place.

It's a fair point. I do think people should atleast be aware of what they're using and what the limitations are. I'm against the compulsary aspect though if people know the risks, either way.

 

[Searush]

He explained that most of the incidents to which the RNLI is called where someone has fallen in the water (admittedly usually without lifejackets) - it's usually the case that unless they've been sighted afloat after falling in then - almost inevitably - they'll have drowned because of the gasping reflex which happens after immersion.

That isn't my experience. I have gone in the water unexpectedly in January - and in melt water at that - much colder than sea water. Sure it was a shock & I had the gasp reaction, but it didn't stop me swimming.

I'd sure accept that anyone going over without an L/J & not being spotted would have a hard time of it, but they did recover that young lady that went over the side recently (not that I would recomend that as a safety policy!)

It does sound like a troll doesn't it?

 

[Woodlouse]

I would have thought the first thing on ones mind after falling in the drink would be to pull the toggle to inflate the life jacket.

As for falling in the water unconscious. How often does that happen? I know all the theoretical scenarios of getting cracked on the head by the boom and all, but seriously, how often does that result in the casualty going over the side?

Personally I've found auto inflating lifejackets to be more irritating and hazardous than useful. And I think it's worth mentioning that in Heavy Weather Sailing Mike Golding came to the same conclusion when skippering during the BT Challenge.

 

[Neil_Y]

Surely it's horses for courses? some times a bouyancy aid is right for the job, other times it's life jacket manual and sometimes auto.

If you are foredeck on a sports boat you don't want a salt tablet auto, hammer action maybe or probably manual as there can be a good chance of swimming and you may have to wait for a while to get picked up. Crotch straps are good but a lifejacket without them is still better than nothing. You should have the freedom to make up your own mind as to what you want. Beware...helmets could become compulsory if the stats on head injuries from booms are looked at.

 

[dt4134]

Personally I've found auto inflating lifejackets to be more irritating and hazardous than useful. And I think it's worth mentioning that in Heavy Weather Sailing Mike Golding came to the same conclusion when skippering during the BT Challenge.

There's a lot of racers that don't like auto-inflation. I keep one lifejacket with the tablet removed to convert it into a manual lifejacket and I take that one with me when racing. Before I started doing that I had quite a few auto-inflate. I would not like to be caught up in the guardwires by an inflated lifejacket. I've only had one manual auto-inflate (toggle caught on lower guardwire when hiking).

I was very disappointed with the MAIB for not properly investigating this element of lifejackets as part of the Hooligan V investigation. The crew member who died was the only one wearing the auto-inflate lifejacket, but they unfortunately glossed over that.

Having said that, auto-inflate seems to be the best option when cruising and all my cruising lifejackets are auto-inflate. I also reserve the right to refit the tablet to my 'racing' lifejacket where I feel the balance of risk favours that.

PS I can't believe the OP's statement that most of the RNLIs calls to someone who has fallen in the water find a corpse because the person wasn't wearing a lifejacket or only had a manual lifejacket. There are times when I really have started to lose confidence in the RNLI. Not their crews but their publicists. I trust some of their statistics less than I trust Stalin's on tractor production in the latest five year plan.

 

[mainsail]

Survival

Lots of interesting thoughts here. I must say I am quite keen on using a gilet-like buoyancy aid like the Baltic Hamble because there's no mechanism to worry about and nothing to pull

Just to be fair to the RNLI guy he was talking in the main about people who'd fallen in without lifejackets and who had NOT been sighted on the surface.

Once a casualty reflex-gasps water into his or her lungs apparently they sink out of sight and that's about it. So certain is it that they're gonners that the police now apparently refuse to send out dive teams at night to look for people who've fallen or jumped in because of the hazards to their own people working underwater in the dark and because the casualty is almost certainly dead. Cheery thought :-(

 

[Elessar]

I realy lament when I hear of anyone who has a life jacket without a crotch strap.

why?

mine works fine without.

I know because I jumped in from about 10 ft up twice, both with and without the crotch strap fitted. Because I wanted to see what all the preachers were on about.

I now choose to use a l/j without one - when I wear a l/j that is which isn't that often.

If you have a different body shape it may be different for you - but don't judge me!

 

[Woodlouse]

Beware...helmets could become compulsory if the stats on head injuries from booms are looked at.

When sailing dinghies I found that I used to crack my head on the boom quite often when made to wear a helmet. But I've never taken a hit when bare headed.

 

[caiman]

I thought that the function of the crutch straps are to stop your body sinking down through the LJ when you start to loose muscle control.(re Ouzo)Not to prevent the garment comeing off when jumping in from 10 foot.That is prevented by wrapping your arm around the jacket?
I have just been privalaged to view the new RNLI prototype LJ's that will hopefully be issued to the coast in 2011.The ALB LJ's are twin stole,auto on one,manuel on both.They have lights,flares,spray hood,whistle,crutch straps as standard.What is grounbreaking about these jackets is the fact they actually have pockets on them.As far as I am aware,there are no comercially available LJ's that come with pockets.(please enlighten me).
I have just bought a bouyancy aid,purely on the fact that it has four pockets.I wear the BA all the time because it is convienient.I can stash my baccy,phone,HHVHF,crutches for dingle,keys,Ipod,camera,whatever etc 'on top'.The fact that it could save my life if I go MOB is a 'bonus'.The only disadvantage is that if I go in unconcious,it is not guaranteed to 'self right' me.Manufactures take note, 'Lifejacket' that people 'want' to wear.
Cheers
Cheers

 

[Amulet]

Lifejackets are like any other bit of equipment - you have to know what spec you want for your particular purpose.

....had only a year to go before the expiry date on the CO2 container. How can this possibly be allowed on safety-critical kit?.

That's odd, none of my cylinders has an expiry date. They do specify the correct weight when charged with gas, and I weigh them twice a season and examine for corrosion etc. I also feel no guilt about opening up a jacket handed to me on a strange boat to see if it actually has a cylinder!

He also pointed out that it wasn't equipped with a crotch strap. How can it possibly be legal to sell a lifejacket without a crotch strap?

I have had 3 man-overboard situations - one with no jacket, one with jacket but no crotch strap, and one with jacket and crotch strap. All were in benign conditions and ended in fairly easy rescue. The no jacket one was a mild crisis. The jacket without strap was uncomfortable, but not a problem. The jacket with strap was easy-peasy. I often find the crotch strap a hazard on deck - it snarls round every cleat and protrusion. I could understand the choice not to have a crotch strap, and the resulting benefits of wearing a life jacket would still be substantial - probably more useful than a space hopper as a rescue device for example.[/quote]

One of lifejackets on board is a manual

Manual jackets are best if your activity carries a high risk of being trapped under something - a flipped RIB or the like. I used to hate windsurfing in places that insisted on life jackets because it panicked me to get trapped under the sail after a fall and not be able to swim down to get out.

.. many don't have D rings

Some people like to separate the life jacket and harness function so that they can clip on without a life jacket. Some worry that, if their boat can do 20 knots, being dragged along at that speed may be more traumatic than floating behind - so no need for a harness.

However, I wear a life jacket with crotch strap, spray hood (did he not mention that?), light (or that) and harness - I'm a nervous kind of guy.

 

[charles_reed]

Why do you want nanny state to intervene - can you not choose for yourself?

If people won't buy them the manufacturers won't make them.

If legislation is involved a whole layer of inspectors and non-value-adders will be introduced and guess who'll pay for them.

History will probably record the greatest disservice (of the many he did us) that Gordon Brown did to Britian was his overweening micromanaging meddling.

 

[srm]

Lots of relevant points in the posts above.

The nice thing about sailing is that we can - more or less - do as we like. That means we also have to take responsibility for our own equipment and safety of our crew.

Personally, I feel a lot safer making my own decissions regarding equipment on my own boat than having to comply with statutory requirements - so please stop asking for anything in our sport to be 'outlawed' and start taking responsibility for your own equipment and actions.

Incidentally, when employed to skipper a charter yacht I always take one of my own inflatable lifejacket (auto inflate, harness, crotch strap and tether) as I do feel the code is inadequate. However, on my own boat I also have SOLAS approved fixed buoyancy life jackets should we ever need to abandon ship.