Is it still worth carrying flares?

[rogerthebodger]

It still compulsory in Australia - we do not have the choice.

In South Africa is also compulsory so we also don't have a choice.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

That was stage , it was reported one fishermen to say , "we been reading YBW on flares , and wanted to prove some posting wrong and flares are useful "
Another fishermen said , " we all run out of credit on our phone talking to our love once , we didn't think about calling the CG until it was too late " the third guy said " we only set it off to keep warm , "

I wonder what they said about their missing colleagues?

 

[Tranona]

Still useful if only to avoid fines in France.

There is no compulsion to carry flares on a British registered boat - even in France. However if you do then they must be in date in France to avoid a potential fine.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I wonder what they said about their missing colleagues?

Considering there still two missing , my comment was out of order .
I didn't know at the time that there was still guys missing .

Going back to this subject , how many people are carring out of date flares ? I know quite a few , the boat I brought 20 months ago ad Flares from 2001

Maybe you if sellers where made to taken old flare when new once are brought personal people be more tempted to buy new ones .

 

[dunedin]

Life raft with three fishermen in found and rescued by cruise liner because they spotted a flare. North Sea search for fishermen after cruise ship saves three men http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45311589 . Flares do work even when everything else doesn’t....

Presumably because the only thing available to them were the flares in the liferaft. If they had had a portable VHF radio and or PLB with them that may have got them rescued sooner.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Considering there still two missing , my comment was out of order .
I didn't know at the time that there was still guys missing .

Going back to this subject , how many people are carring out of date flares ? I know quite a few , the boat I brought 20 months ago ad Flares from 2001

Maybe you if sellers where made to taken old flare when new once are brought personal people be more tempted to buy new ones .

Top man sailaboutvic.

Mine are up to date and I keep my out of date ones in a box in my shed. Eventually I will make the 140 mile round trip to Girvan Coastguard, my nearest TEP site, to dispose of the equivalent of 3 offshore packs. However, the RYA leaflet suggests other areas to dispose of them, so I will try these first.

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollecti...lations and Safety/MCA-TEP-info-June-2017.pdf

 

[Mark-1]

Presumably because the only thing available to them were the flares in the liferaft. If they had had a portable VHF radio and or PLB with them that may have got them rescued sooner.

This, 100pc.

Astonishing that people are using this incident as an example of a *successful* use of flares. Using flares, 20 hours later two are still missing in spite of 20 vessels searching for them, the ones that were rescued were rescued after 4 hours. In 2018 that's just not good enough. (I bet those search vessels are all communicating with something a bit more sophisticated than light from flares or an aldis lamp.)

I think I'm paraphrasing an old advert, but if I ever need help I want to instigate a rescue, not a search.

Nobody's disputing that a bright light will make it far easier for rescuers to close the last 500m, but that can be achieved with a strobe at night or pretty much any method of choice from "ANNEX 4 - Distress Signals" of the IRPCS during the day. (Flag being the obvious one, and a bit less flammable than a flare!) Plus a flag/strobe identify position for significantly longer than the piss poor 4 minutes a flare is capable of showing light for.

If 200 years ago every sailor carried a Mobile Phone, a couple of PLBs, an EPIRB, a VHF & a Satellite Phone and a strobe light on each LJ I very much doubt anyone would have said "Hey what we really need is a single use device to to generate a very bright light for a short period of time - and it doesn't matter if it gets hot enough to set fire to the boat."

This is largely a debate about semantics, the advocates of flares all seem to understand their limitations, and the benefits of more reliable communications methods. They're just carrying flares in addition to decent comms kit. And nobody is the 'anti-flares' camp is saying other people shouldn't carry flares if they wish. So I'm not sure there is a real disagreement here.

What might help is if the MCA listed recommended emergency comms kit for various class of vessels in priority order. So Kayak might be 1) Mobile, 2) VHF, 3) PLB for instance, and yacht might be 1) EPIRB 2) VHF 3) PLB 4) Mobile. (I'm not suggesting those are a sensible order, merely giving an example of the format of the list.) That way people who wanted n+1 emergency comms options would at least have a best practice priority order. (Which they'd be free to ignore and substitute their own, but it would be a handy starting point.)

At the moment you could have 30 different comms mechanisms and someone from the n+1 brigade could still look down their nose at you for failing to carry a barrel full of tar to burn.

 

[prv]

someone from the n+1 brigade could still look down their nose at you for failing to carry a barrel full of tar to burn.

As it happens, most of us do actually have a reasonable substitute. A saucepan and teatowel from the galley, a splash of diesel from the spare can, and I’m told you can send up a very visible flame and black-smoke signal . Keep the saucepan lid to hand and you can instantly shut things down by putting it on. Of course you can always lob the whole lot over the side if needs be.

I don’t plan to try this any time soon, but the instructor on my VHF course claimed to have done it for real and got an injured crew-member winched off by helicopter.

Bet he’d have preferred to use a hand flare had there been any on board, of course

Pete

 

[Mark-1]

injured crew-member winched off by helicopter.

I'm not surprised!

 

[KellysEye]

If you do have an EPIRB make sure it is a modern one the old ones can take up to 2 hours to get a signal. Also remember the battery life, PLBs once activated, will transmit for a minimum of 24 hours; while the battery life on an EPIRB is at least double a minimum of 48 hours

 

[Hoolie]

Another aid to rescue is fluorescein dye, sold in small containers at high chandlery prices, in France anyway. Much cheaper to buy it as drain tracer at Toolstation or Screwfix. Highly visible from the air and doesn't set fire to the life-raft when deployed either

 

[oldmanofthehills]

If you have a knockdown your mast might go and thus your primary aerial, your electrics might be waterlogged and thus your primary radio. So handheld VHF with a range of maybe 3 miles, and you are 12 miles off shore - still coastal but out of good sight of land - off course your eprb will bring helicopter within 24 hours if it works but you wont know if it is working - flares however require no battery, no aerial and might be seen by coast watcher or passing ship. And smoke will finally bring rescue helicopter to you not the lat/long wher the satelite last got your signal. The only reason UK does like them is disposal and possible use by terrorists and football hooligans.

The effectiveness of an aid is a tribute to the lack of reporting of issues

 

[Zing]

I was wondering if a modern device might be better for signalling. A red parachute flare puts out only 30,000 candela and only for 30 seconds. My Thrunite V6 spotlight will put out 140,000 candela for 3 minutes and after a brief cool down will do it again and again for hours - not seconds note. There are also laser devices and some are designed for just this job.

 

[ShinyShoe]

If you have a knockdown your mast might go and thus your primary aerial, your electrics might be waterlogged and thus your primary radio. So handheld VHF with a range of maybe 3 miles, and you are 12 miles off shore - still coastal but out of good sight of land - off course your eprb will bring helicopter within 24 hours if it works but you wont know if it is working - flares however require no battery, no aerial and might be seen by coast watcher or passing ship.

So I'm 12 miles off. A ship is within sight. Why wont the HH VHF reach them? Yes they might not be listening. But they might not be looking at your flare either.
I get that the dog walker on the beach isn't on CH16. BUT can anyone tell me somewhere the dog walker can see me, that neither a mobile phone or HH on CH16 will allow me to reach the CG?

And smoke will finally bring rescue helicopter to you not the lat/long wher the satelite last got your signal.

Yes - but the initial search position is likely to be "miles" from a location. i.e. Flare sighted aprox 2 miles South of X. Hope when the cavalry arrive - they haven't used all their flares trying to get help...

The only reason UK does like them is disposal and possible use by terrorists and football hooligans.

Does or Doesn't?
I've never seen terrorism listed as a genuine concern. I can buy far more explosive on Fireworks night.
Football - yes...And rightly so - the thought of setting of a flare in a crowd of 50,000 is utterly stupid.

The reason they aren't liked is because setting one off on a small boat is blo**y dangerous, and no more effective than an EPIRB or PLB...

The effectiveness of an aid is a tribute to the lack of reporting of issues

What does that even mean?
Most people are saying flares (if carried) are their last resort. So a boat that sinks without trace... ...we have no idea if they used the flares etc?

Presumably because the only thing available to them were the flares in the liferaft. If they had had a portable VHF radio and or PLB with them that may have got them rescued sooner.

Yip - no-one knew of an issue till they were rescued - should have had a float free EPIRB. Any number of modern bits of kit could have / should have flagged a problem. Doesn't feel like there is a reason that boats like this that are relatively high risk couldn't send an automated Sat Phone message every 15 minutes saying "I'm OK, this is my pos" With any failure to report twice resulting in some form of investigation.

This, 100pc.

Astonishing that people are using this incident as an example of a *successful* use of flares. Using flares, 20 hours later two are still missing in spite of 20 vessels searching for them, the ones that were rescued were rescued after 4 hours. In 2018 that's just not good enough. (I bet those search vessels are all communicating with something a bit more sophisticated than light from flares or an aldis lamp.)

The thread criticising the Clipper Race a while back was saying they hadn't kitted everyone with PLB and how bad that was. Yet I hear far more of fishing boats being lost and fishermen going over without a LJ than I do leisure sailors/racers. Perhaps every fisherman should have a PLB in their pocket. That would have been 5 PLBs.

This is largely a debate about semantics, the advocates of flares all seem to understand their limitations, and the benefits of more reliable communications methods. They're just carrying flares in addition to decent comms kit. And nobody is the 'anti-flares' camp is saying other people shouldn't carry flares if they wish. So I'm not sure there is a real disagreement here.

But I do often see the "pro" flares camp - quoting the final mile stuff... yet as others have said there may be almost as effective ways. They also have said in this thread "you know it has worked"... ...but just like a PLB / EPIRB you don't know it has been acted on. So sometimes I think they think they are more effective than they are.

What might help is if the MCA listed recommended emergency comms kit for various class of vessels in priority order. So Kayak might be 1) Mobile, 2) VHF, 3) PLB for instance, and yacht might be 1) EPIRB 2) VHF 3) PLB 4) Mobile. (I'm not suggesting those are a sensible order, merely giving an example of the format of the list.) That way people who wanted n+1 emergency comms options would at least have a best practice priority order. (Which they'd be free to ignore and substitute their own, but it would be a handy starting point.)

I don't think it is that simple though is it?

Kayak - paddling in a harbour - Phone is probably all they need (although we hopefully all know the advantages of VHF and VHF would be better). Kayak exploring remote coast - Phone unlikely to serve much use for comms (but may be a GPS!) VHF **MAY** work. But in close to cliffs - risk of cliff shadow. PLB should work.

Yacht in harbour - no different to a Kayak. Less likely to be in the cliff shadow, but not impossible. More likely to have a mast and 25W of power. But a risk of loosing the mast. More likely to be offshore and out of range of handheld kit. Yacht in UK waters - no need for EPIRB. Yacht in an ocean - EPIRB.

So it isn't the craft it is the 'waters' that define what is optimal... (skipping any that are simply not practical like a fixed VHF on a kayak

< 3 miles from shore
Fixed DSC VHF
Non DSC Fixed VHF
Hand Held VHF
Mobile Phone
(PLB)
(Flares)
(Other SOLAS recognised distress signals)

Close in shore where reception might be affected by cliffs
VHF
Mobile
PLB
(Flares)
(other SOLAS)

3 - 20 miles off shore
Fixed VHF AND HH VHF (preferably DSC)
(Mobile Phone - less likely to work - but who doesn't have one these days)
PLB or EPIRB
(Flares)
(Other SOLAS)

>20 miles off Shore
Fixed VHF and HH VHF
EPIRB
PLBs
Sat Phone
(Flares)
(Other SOLAS)

If you do have an EPIRB make sure it is a modern one the old ones can take up to 2 hours to get a signal. Also remember the battery life, PLBs once activated, will transmit for a minimum of 24 hours; while the battery life on an EPIRB is at least double a minimum of 48 hours

Old EPIRBs 2 hours for a position, and a less accurate position. If a shore contact knows where you are - search can still start. There is some element of delay depending where you are in the world...

You have to be a significant distance from the UK for 24hours to be a major issue. The reliability of PLB needing held seems a higher concern to me.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I'm glad I never go out with some of the skippers on here. £24 or £48 gives me further back up that might save my life and my beloveds life. Cheap at twice the price, cheap at ten times the price. Mandatory in many sensible administrations - whats not to like?

I have 3 radios and 3 aerials to and an eprb and plb, before flares but if all else fails flares. I dont fancy trying diesel in a bucket if Im sinking.

 

[[70521]]

Astonishing that people are using this incident as an example of a *successful* use of flares. Using flares, 20 hours later two are still missing in spite of 20 vessels searching for them, the ones that were rescued were rescued after 4 hours. In 2018 that's just not good enough. (I bet those search vessels are all communicating with something a bit more sophisticated than light from flares or an aldis lamp.

Try asking that of the three guys in the liferaft and the crew of the passenger ship that picked them up.

While there are two men who did not make it into that liferaft, three did and were able to attract the attention of a ship and will be going home to see their loved ones again; because of an outdated technology.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Try asking that of the three guys in the liferaft and the crew of the passenger ship that picked them up.

While there are two men who did not make it into that liferaft, three did and were able to attract the attention of a ship and will be going home to see their loved ones again; because of an outdated technology.

That is very true.

However, if the raft had better signalling equipment - a VHF radio (not sure something actually exists that maintains battery etc for years in storage) or a PLB/EPIRB in the raft they would have triggered a search quicker. And it **might** be possible the other 2 were rescued. The fact that flares worked is true, the fact they needed to wait 4 hours to see another boat to set it off, shows they lack perfection.

If I was in the liferaft without them would I want them... darned sure I would. But I'd want to know where my PLB in my pocket had gone...

 

[[70521]]

Sadly, the BBC is reporting that two bodies have been found. RIP

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-45314937

If the fishing boat went over so quickly that a Mayday could not be transmitted then that was fast, but not unusual.

Fishermen are well known not to wear lifejackets, pretty sure that popping a PLB into a pocket would not be another of their high priorities.

 

[Yealm]

I was wondering if a modern device might be better for signalling. A red parachute flare puts out only 30,000 candela and only for 30 seconds. My Thrunite V6 spotlight will put out 140,000 candela for 3 minutes and after a brief cool down will do it again and again for hours - not seconds note. There are also laser devices and some are designed for just this job.

excellent point !

 

[Yealm]

If you have a knockdown your mast might go and thus your primary aerial, your electrics might be waterlogged and thus your primary radio. So handheld VHF with a range of maybe 3 miles, and you are 12 miles off shore - still coastal but out of good sight of land - off course your eprb will bring helicopter within 24 hours if it works but you wont know if it is working - flares however require no battery, no aerial and might be seen by coast watcher or passing ship. And smoke will finally bring rescue helicopter to you not the lat/long wher the satelite last got your signal. The only reason UK does like them is disposal and possible use by terrorists and football hooligans.

The effectiveness of an aid is a tribute to the lack of reporting of issues

With Sat phone, EPIRB, PLB, HH VHF and electric flares I bet you'd never need to open the flare container !