Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?

[pvb]

C'mon ... it was in response to your reply to my PoV that designs are not always based on what people want - but based on what is believed people want.

Your PoV, as I recall, is that modern boats are designed by "spotty consultants". I'd have thought you'd have had a better understanding of modern business. If the boats aren't what buyers want, they won't sell. So the fact that Beneteau is so successful rather defeats your PoV.

 

[Refueler]

Why do i always end up arguing with you ??? We would have a heyday in the club bar!!!
You say that the manufacturer may not be designing what people want but you seem to be suggesting that they are creating a market of what they want people to want. In a way that is excellent marketing. However, i think in the yachting industry that is flawed argument, because there is a host of boats in the 45-60 ft range ( makes me wonder how they manage to sell them all) & if the market did not like the offering from one manufacturer they could move on. One could go from HR to Swan to Rustler to Gunfleet, to Oyster, Contest to Hanse to Benny & the list goes on. Or are you saying that the new Rustler is too much like the new Benny .
What about Spirit- Have not seen a proper picture but i bet it is a lot different.
Who will sell the most
Hanse, Benny ?? certainly not Rustler or Oyster etc

No need to argue ... its just debate of points of view.

I used to live in Tallinn .... there's a good story in there as well about Soviet Submarines - but another time ..... and I got friendly with RIDAS.

They built a very nice fast race cruiser Ridas 35 ... and then a 31. Along with an agent in UK - we tried to market in UK ... but I couldn't invest or commit enough to the venture.
But we had long conversations about how he decided on such size and design. Basically it was identified that at that time 31 - 36 ft was a popular size and would sell better. I asked why he didn't build a 26ft'r as a starter boat and he was honest and said too expensive per foot to build against possible sale price. Eventually he did produce a 26 ... very fast boat as well ... but it did not sell in numbers even though 26 in those days was popular. Market want did not translate into sales.

Another boat then appeared Northstar (I may have the name wrong - its a few years ago and trying to remember its designation) ... but it was large enough to enter trans globe events ... based on ideas submitted by ocean racing crews and then built by Ridas. I was invited on board when it was commissioned in Pirita Harbour.
Ridas himself remarked that despite the wealth of info and ideas given to the design owners - they modified and tweaked it till basically it was a non seller. Instructing Ridas to build as they drew up.

I agree its only a small and one off example - but it happened.

 

[Refueler]

Your PoV, as I recall, is that modern boats are designed by "spotty consultants". I'd have thought you'd have had a better understanding of modern business. If the boats aren't what buyers want, they won't sell. So the fact that Beneteau is so successful rather defeats your PoV.

C'mon - I am not only one here guilty of over generalisation..

Of course a fair % of design is from market research and customer feedback - but consultant design is serious matter in all products in this day and age. Literally nothing gets built today without some consultant involved ... and its not so rare for them to get it wrong.

What I said "I tend not to believe manufacturers build what people want ... I trend to the idea they build what they THINK and some spotty consultant says people want. "

.... does not as you imply say the Spotty Consultant is the whole design person ... it actually says "trend to the idea" .. the manufacturer thinks what people want and a spotty consultant has part in it ..

Which in plain english means I think .. not state .. I think this is situation. a long way for what you imply I am saying.

 

[RJJ]

My only beef is lack of handholds below. Lots of space to fall across.

Otherwise I think these boats are good, and astonishingly good for what most punters want them for most of the time...fast, comfy sailing in favourable conditions, up and downwind, and luxurious once moored.

 

[pvb]

Of course a fair % of design is from market research and customer feedback - but consultant design is serious matter in all products in this day and age. Literally nothing gets built today without some consultant involved ... and its not so rare for them to get it wrong.

What I said "I tend not to believe manufacturers build what people want ... I trend to the idea they build what they THINK and some spotty consultant says people want. "

.... does not as you imply say the Spotty Consultant is the whole design person ... it actually says "trend to the idea" .. the manufacturer thinks what people want and a spotty consultant has part in it ..

Which in plain english means I think .. not state .. I think this is situation. a long way for what you imply I am saying.

We'll have to disagree. I think Beneteau have got their design process pretty well right. The boats sell, so they must be what buyers want.

 

[Refueler]

We'll have to disagree. I think Beneteau have got their design process pretty well right. The boats sell, so they must be what buyers want.

Fine .. if we all agreed - what a boring world it would be ... you'd have nothing to argue with here !!

 

[NOHOH]

Maybe what you need is one of these

 

[Refueler]

We'll have to disagree. I think Beneteau have got their design process pretty well right. The boats sell, so they must be what buyers want.

But then again look at how many Bavs' there are out there !! At one time they were hard pushed to keep up with demand ... then keels started dropping off ... and the Match versions came out ...

Good design layout and priced - but Oh Dear ....

Delivered a few of them privately ... got fed up with the headaches from 'resin' stink ... and then last one I delivered from Travemunde to Venstpils ... Match 35 ... I really thought the mast was going to fail ... you could hear the stress and strain of it ... when really pressed as any race boat would be - you could actually see the in cabin part vibrating.

About 1 year after I delivered her ... the keel fell of in a race while passing Kolka ....

 

[Tradewinds]

Well, I have to say that I really liked the big, soft, sofa/settee in the saloon. No uncomfortable upright backrest that gives you gyp after half an hour (and no need for a cushion in the small of the back to try and ease the inevitable backache).

However, the rest of the boat is not to my taste - but I can see how it will appeal to the punters they're targeting.

 

[PaulRainbow]

C'mon ... it was in response to your reply to my PoV that designs are not always based on what people want - but based on what is believed people want.
I can remember Bendy being near bankrupt - yes I'm that old .... so - I agree its been a remarkable turn round - aided by Jeanneau of course ...

How were they aided by Jeanneau ?

Jeanneau went skint 25 years ago and beni bought them out.

 

[Refueler]

.... this was offered to me after it had taken ex Latvian Prime Minister round the world 2001 - 2002 ... yacht Milda... 60ft schooner ...



Berths 10 incl crew 3 ..... and has TWO hip BATHS on board ... yes BATHS ! Stern master cabin is superb like a miniature Nelsons job. Tender hoists to davits at stern - with cocktail deck extends out onto davits with a hatch in centre to access dinghy.

She's moved on now ... myself and a partner were planning to put her to Business charter work ... but in the end she was sold to another ...

 

[Refueler]

How were they aided by Jeanneau ?

Jeanneau went skint 25 years ago and beni bought them out.

OK - so I was loose with the text ... fact is together they flourished .. I posted quick as well - as I couldn't remember which one was the buyer and which went belly up .. point is again - the two together ...

Muppet !

 

[geem]

I'm quite happy to admire them. I do not have to own one. Now that racing designs have become so highly specialized, its finally time we just relaxed and got on with the simple joys of sailing. The modern wedge shapes might be fast and are meant to plane, but only when lightly built and loaded. In the more common sizes, suitable for a cruising couple and, when loaded for the task with bikes and tools, supplies, dinghies and outboards, not to mention a comfortable interior with a full fridge, it all done with the planing and going fast bit. I've seen plenty of the smaller Hanse's with the wedge ends and the his 'n' her's steering wheels dragging along an equally wide wedge of disturbed water, when just loaded up for the weekend and with a crew six well-fed guys in her cockpit. Wide boats may be stiff initially, but they are not stable ultimately. This is somewhat mitigated when the boat gets bigger, simply because when it comes to seaworthiness, with everything else being equal, size does matter. On speed: the average relative and medium speed for fore and aft rigged "normal" yachts is still 0.9 x square root LWL, or thereabouts. A German yachting magazine did a race between a modern x-yacht and a two hundred year-old design design of a Dutch Lemsteraak fishing boat. Considering the aspect of speed only, the gaff rigged antique came out on top. The conclusion: everything changes and nothing does. And yes, blunt bows are, apparently, in again as well.
Best, A

Ah, how refreshing to read a post where the writer clearly understands the limits of new boat design. I read an interesting article by an America yacht designer who explained that in light winds these modern wide arse designs are slower simply because the hulls are not strong enough to accommodate a tall mast and sail area to take advantage of the hull shape. The keels are too short and they dont carry enough ballast at the tip of keel. They are a copy of the Imoca 60 style of hull in appearance only.
If we all believed the blurb written in the sailing magazines about the new Bav/Ben/Jen being faster than its predecessor, boats should be doing a hundred mph by now. In my experience of cruising between islands here in the Caribbean, modern cruising boats in full cruising trim, as we are with bikes, paddleboards, large dinghies, large outboards and tonnes of other gear all travel at about the same speed as older designs. A modern cruising boat of the same size has never overtaken us with wind on the beam as we invariably get here between islands.

 

[pvb]

But then again look at how many Bavs' there are out there !! At one time they were hard pushed to keep up with demand ... then keels started dropping off ... and the Match versions came out ...

Good design layout and priced - but Oh Dear ....

Delivered a few of them privately ... got fed up with the headaches from 'resin' stink ... and then last one I delivered from Travemunde to Venstpils ... Match 35 ... I really thought the mast was going to fail ... you could hear the stress and strain of it ... when really pressed as any race boat would be - you could actually see the in cabin part vibrating.

About 1 year after I delivered her ... the keel fell of in a race while passing Kolka ....

The Bavaria Match series are the only Bavaria boats which suffered keel problems, and Bavaria reacted by recalling and strengthening the small number of boats affected. (You may be old enough to remember that Westerly did a similar thing when Centaur keels started falling off.)

Bavarias generally are thoroughly sound boats, designed properly and built to exacting standards thanks to extensive automation. Your "resin stink" comment is strange; I bought a new Bavaria and on delivery it didn't smell at all.

 

[Refueler]

In 2003 - my 1980 Saaremaa 1/4 ton won the Baltsail Regatta against moder design boats not only by Handicap but also first over the finish line in Pirita Harbour, Tallinn.

She was one of 12 boats built on Island of Saaremaa for the 1980 Olympics sailing held at Tallinn - (Moscow Olympics). Pine on Oak frames. They provided a show demonstration race as part of the 'entertainment' before full racing began. When I bought her - she had still on board the Official Chart of the races and markers ... sadly lost now over the years in moves

Again I have problem with Photobucket - otherwise I'd post the photo of Eola stomping past the Carter on way to first marker ..

 

[capnsensible]

I reckon that 'modern boats look rubbish' is up there with Policemen being too young and 'it was all fields round here'.

Age, my old salty dogs, it gets us all.

 

[Babylon]

It doesn't float my boat... but then neither do modern motorbikes nor minimalist dwellings where you need a degree to switch on the lights.

Chacun à son goût...

 

[Refueler]

The Bavaria Match series are the only Bavaria boats which suffered keel problems, and Bavaria reacted by recalling and strengthening the small number of boats affected. (You may be old enough to remember that Westerly did a similar thing when Centaur keels started falling off.)

Bavarias generally are thoroughly sound boats, designed properly and built to exacting standards thanks to extensive automation. Your "resin stink" comment is strange; I bought a new Bavaria and on delivery it didn't smell at all.

Naviatech Marine Services - my company in UK which I then transferred to Estonia ... - carried out a number of keel inspections on Bav's for faults.

As an overall boat - yes I agree it was a boat to suit the market and good layout etc, sailed well. But the Match was a disaster ... great idea ... but I would not agree they sorted it - because it ended up of market ...

I must have been unlucky then - but I can remember the stink of resin and the headaches as a result clearly on boats I sailed.
Its funny actually - the only one I was on that didn't was the Match ! But that was an ex Charter boat out of Travemunde ...

Centaur and her sisters and the 'splayed' keels.
Usual remedy was owners paid to add rovings ... never heard Westerly pay - Westerly only partially solved it in last runs ... I used to live in Cowplain and knew the Westerly people in Waterloovile just down the road from me.

Did you know that some of the older design Westerly moulds mysteriously vanished when they went belly up ?

 

[dunedin]

Some people like Morris Ital and such other old mundane cars. It’s a matter of opinion.

Regarding boats, I think most modern Arcona, HR, X-Yacht or similar is a massive improvement over older boats (performance, comfort, passage making) and look stylish as well as functional. No Macwesters etc for me.

 

[pvb]

Centaur and her sisters and the 'splayed' keels.
Usual remedy was owners paid to add rovings ... never heard Westerly pay - Westerly only partially solved it in last runs ... I used to live in Cowplain and knew the Westerly people in Waterloovile just down the road from me.

I believe the cost of rectification was one of the factors leading to Westerly going bust in 1980/81.