Is boating in a death spiral?

[Ceirwan]

True to a point but but you can buy a good boat for 5k at the moment and run it in the region of 2.5k per year as long as you are away from the Solent.
I'm not suggesting that £50 per week is cheap but it is probably doable for many people.

I have been close to this market for the past year and there are some very good, remarkably inexpensive boats to be had - provided you don't mind a bit of work and maybe travel. Very little spending required but this won't last too long, all the best ones will be bought up and the dross will be shaken out one way or another.

Social changes are driving the present slump, small cruising boats are not popular and their time will probably not come again. Happy days if that is the style of sailing you are keen on.

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I'm fortunate to live in an area with very cheap berthing.
The downsides are as mentioned above by Flaming, competitive racing isn't really a thing here, it was 30 years ago when I was a kid, but not these days.

Another caveat, also covered by Flaming is the sailing conditions, I'm based on the Humber, there is no 24 hour port, most places give you a couple of hours over the top of the tide, its a nasty estuary in bad weather with no real shelter, not a place you want to be out in a poorly maintained boat. Its the same for most of the East coast, tidal, very exposed with few safe harbours.

£5k might get you a boat, but something with rigging done within 10 years, sails in good condition, and an engine that's in good condition, systems that work and aren't prehistoric etc. Maybe at the very small end of the market, there are bargains out there, but they aren't all that common.
Most boats that are worth that value are missing most of those things because they're at the cheap end of the market, spending £2.5k on new sails when the boats only worth £5k is for most people a non starter, not all but most.

I don't think the market will ever recover for small boats, older ones that is, all boats are liabilities, not assets, and I don't see how a 40 year old boat will be worth more when its 50 years old with another decade of possible neglect. Especially when there are much more attractive propositions that will come down in price.

 

[flaming]

I don't think the market will ever recover for small boats, older ones that is, all boats are liabilities, not assets, and I don't see how a 40 year old boat will be worth more when its 50 years old with another decade of possible neglect. Especially when there are much more attractive propositions that will come down in price.

This is the key point now. And frankly the whole industry, and especially the sailors, need to be far more honest about when a boat has actually reached end of life rather than advertising it as "a good project for the right person". There aren't enough right people for the number of boats who are now reaching the point where they need a major refit.

And this is a problem that is only going to get worse, as the average size of boats reaching that point will grow over time.

The good news is that the scrap value of lead is about £1k per tonne at the moment. So there's value in those keels....

 

[dgadee]

The good news is that the scrap value of lead is about £1k per tonne at the moment. So there's value in those keels....

Poor quality cast iron is only 1/10th of that.

 

[doug748]

I'm fortunate to live in an area with very cheap berthing.
The downsides are as mentioned above by Flaming, competitive racing isn't really a thing here, it was 30 years ago when I was a kid, but not these days.

Another caveat, also covered by Flaming is the sailing conditions, I'm based on the Humber, there is no 24 hour port, most places give you a couple of hours over the top of the tide, its a nasty estuary in bad weather with no real shelter, not a place you want to be out in a poorly maintained boat. Its the same for most of the East coast, tidal, very exposed with few safe harbours.

£5k might get you a boat, but something with rigging done within 10 years, sails in good condition, and an engine that's in good condition, systems that work and aren't prehistoric etc. Maybe at the very small end of the market, there are bargains out there, but they aren't all that common.
Most boats that are worth that value are missing most of those things because they're at the cheap end of the market, spending £2.5k on new sails when the boats only worth £5k is for most people a non starter, not all but most.

I don't think the market will ever recover for small boats, older ones that is, all boats are liabilities, not assets, and I don't see how a 40 year old boat will be worth more when its 50 years old with another decade of possible neglect. Especially when there are much more attractive propositions that will come down in price.

Why would you expect to get a five grand boat with everything done for you? Why would you need to buy new sails for a cheap boat?
I have actually been looking and buying. In the spring I bought a 26foot modern design (broad stern, open cockpit, aft heads, large aft cabin) for a little over 4k -
New heads
New cooker
Good late plotter and charts
Autohelm that may never have been used
Mast and rigging new in 2012
New engine with 50 hours on it, looked like it had just come off the pallet.
Plastic sea cocks, the driest boat I have ever seen, not a drop from the hull or deck, hull unmarked.

Spent a ruck of time on it and very little money. £300 tops and I sold unwanted stuff off it for nearly £200 (like an almost new inflatable)
Used it over the season, not my cup of tea so sold it couple of months ago; the new owner is overjoyed. I recommended he put a new furler, forestay and genoa on it which he will probably do. Facebook Marketplace will sort that for about 400 quid.

I dare not tell you the spec of the present boat, bought for 6k, you may not believe it. The trick is to see value and take on stuff that is cheap of free to fix - or discretionary. Present boat has water in the deck, if and when I decide to fix it it will take work but almost no money.
If you have the time and inclination, it is a golden time to pick up a light project.

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[flaming]

Poor quality cast iron is only 1/10th of that.

Yes, pick your projects wisely....

 

[Sea Change]

I can keep a boat for essentially zero cost back home. There are downsides though.
- no yard, pontoon, club, or any other infrastructure
- definitely no racing!
- maintenance means travelling several days away to a yard, or drying out on legs or a wall
- definitely no insurance cover

It's worked pretty well for me, and probably helped me become quite self sufficient in terms of working on the boat.

 

[mrming]

Another caveat, also covered by Flaming is the sailing conditions, I'm based on the Humber, there is no 24 hour port, most places give you a couple of hours over the top of the tide, its a nasty estuary in bad weather with no real shelter, not a place you want to be out in a poorly maintained boat. Its the same for most of the East coast, tidal, very exposed with few safe harbours.
price.

We base our cruising boat on the Swale. Between it and the Medway there’s a large calm area for sailing if it’s too windy to take the kids out into less sheltered waters. So there are places on the East coast with shelter for sure.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... And frankly the whole industry, and especially the sailors, need to be far more honest about when a boat has actually reached end of life rather than advertising it as "a good project for the right person". ...

This forum is full of people who think every old boat is worth saving and would make a good project for someone. The recent thread where the Sadler was being scrapped is a case in point. One of the most knowledgable members, who I think even lectured at university on marine management subjects, described the scrapping as nonsense. The ego has a lot to answer for, with a few wishing to see the survey report, no doubt so they could pontificate how the boat's could be saved.

 

[KevinV]

getting the kids into sailing so they can't afford drugs...

Love it!

 

[Ceirwan]

Why would you expect to get a five grand boat with everything done for you? Why would you need to buy new sails for a cheap boat?


Spent a ruck of time on it and very little money. £300 tops and I sold unwanted stuff off it for nearly £200 (like an almost new inflatable)
Used it over the season, not my cup of tea so sold it couple of months ago; the new owner is overjoyed. I recommended he put a new furler, forestay and genoa on it which he will probably do. Facebook Marketplace will sort that for about 400 quid.

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Well on the one hand you're telling me that its not realistic to expect a well sorted boat at that price, and then next you're telling me that you got a well sorted one for even cheaper, but regardless, that kind of says it all doesn't it? New engine, new plotter, , new heads (they aren't that expensive, but still), new cooker, fairly new mast and rigging, and after all that the guy only got 4k for it. A new 1gm10 is 4.5k right off the bat., you got a bargain, but its not much incentive for any owner out there to take the upgrade path..

Do you mind telling me what class of boat this 4k modern 26 footer was?
To me modern is post 2000, which can still be 25 years old.

And time to spend is what most people are lacking these days, I work offshore so have chunks of time available where I can get projects done, most people aren't so lucky and have to do it on weekends around other stuff like activities with their kids, other commitments etc.

Old boats do eventually need upgrading, someone has to bear that cost, in your case the owner before you spent probably 1.5x the value of what he got for the boat and probably only got a grand more for it then he might have done anyway, Bargains like that are few and far between & will get rarer as these boats get older.
Eventually at some point its just not worth spending the money to keep it going as opposed to buying something newer, unless you have an emotional attachment.

I don't think boating is in a death spiral btw, but I do think that the equivalent cost to get a new ish, well sorted boat compared to the average salary is definitely making it less attractive, especially with mooring costs in the most popular areas as they are. Unless we see a big change in disposable income then its going to keep declining.

This is the key point now. And frankly the whole industry, and especially the sailors, need to be far more honest about when a boat has actually reached end of life rather than advertising it as "a good project for the right person". There aren't enough right people for the number of boats who are now reaching the point where they need a major refit.

And this is a problem that is only going to get worse, as the average size of boats reaching that point will grow over time.

The good news is that the scrap value of lead is about £1k per tonne at the moment. So there's value in those keels....

Absolutely.
If I can get back what I paid for a boat when I sell it, that's already a win. And that's despite ongoing maintenance and upgrades. I hate to think what I spent on my various past boats over the years, but ultimately its an expensive hobby.
At our club we've had to cut a few vessels up with a petrol powered circular saw, and dump them into a skip. Quite a sad end for them, but they couldn't be given away, and the few that were, ended up in the same spot as they were acquired by dreamers who had no idea how much they would cost to bring back to life.

 

[The Q]

I find these prices you all quote amazing,
27ft motorboat on the broads, with my 16ft mini keelboat moored alongside.
Around about £1000. More if I went to some of the other clubs but still likely to be less than £2000 a year.
Ok commercial moorings are more but not that much more.

Floating any tide, access to the sea should I wish. Approximately 30 sailing clubs available, all seems to be thriving.

 

[doug748]

Well on the one hand you're telling me that its not realistic to expect a well sorted boat at that price, and then next you're telling me that you got a well sorted one for even cheaper, but regardless, that kind of says it all doesn't it? New engine, new plotter, , new heads (they aren't that expensive, but still), new cooker, fairly new mast and rigging, and after all that the guy only got 4k for it. A new 1gm10 is 4.5k right off the bat., you got a bargain, but its not much incentive for any owner out there to take the upgrade path.

I did not suggest the boat was well sorted but that it had the basis of an excellent boat at little cost in pound notes. It probably took me the equivalent of about 20, 10 hour days to get it ready to launch in the spring.

The only point I am making is that general talk about older boats needing everything doing and £20,000 spending on them is not necessarily true in the present market. However you do need the motivation and time to spend instead.

I agree, it is never a good idea to put a new engine in an old boat unless you intend to keep it 10 years - then it is often an excellent idea.

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[potentillaCO32]

This forum is full of people who think every old boat is worth saving and would make a good project for someone. The recent thread where the Sadler was being scrapped is a case in point. One of the most knowledgable members, who I think even lectured at university on marine management subjects, described the scrapping as nonsense. The ego has a lot to answer for, with a few wishing to see the survey report, no doubt so they could pontificate how the boat's could be saved.

Nothing to do with ego. More that for decades boats like the sadler 32 were sought after family cruising boats and kept a certain market value of around 15k for a reasonable example. Something that if looked after coukd provide fun and adventures for little relative cost. To see that market disappear over 18 months after covid is slightly shocking and nothing to do with ego. That fact that a lecturer and other knowledgeable people questioned scrapping it and wanting sight of the survey might suggest surprise that a boat is being scrapped for a condition that is regularly treated in a minor and major way.

 

[nestawayboats]

Paradoxically, falling secondhand boat prices means one of the barriers to entry - capital cost - is probably lower now in (inflation-adjusted) real terms than it ever has been.

A quick browse on Apollo Duck and I could buy a 1996 Hunter Ranger 265 for £13k (asking price). In my head that could almost be the definition of a starter boat. Roomy enough for a couple, even with a couple of small kids; has a very acceptable heads compartment; has more galley than a Transporter-based campervan would (and you can stand up in it); has an inboard diesel; doesn't look horrible inside; probably doesn't smell inside; by all accounts sails pretty OK; won't do anything dramatic/scary in reasonable sailing conditions. It even has bilge keels ("twin fins" apparently) so could go on a relatively cheap drying out mooring. Hunter Ranger 265 £13k

Now there will be some haggling on the price but to counter that we need to allow £2-3k (at a guess) for stuff that the survey says "must be done" (eg standing rigging). Call it £15k.

And let's say £3k a year into mooring and lift out/antifouling, insurance etc, plus £2k a year for upgrades over time such as sails to keep it nice.

So we're at £15k up front and £100 a week. That is by no means nothing, but it's not totally ridiculous either.

Or a Sadler 26 (again bilge keels, cheap mooring possible) with nearly-new engine and standing rigging for £9950 Sadler 26 £10k

 

[Ceirwan]

Nothing to do with ego. More that for decades boats like the sadler 32 were sought after family cruising boats and kept a certain market value of around 15k for a reasonable example. Something that if looked after coukd provide fun and adventures for little relative cost. To see that market disappear over 18 months after covid is slightly shocking and nothing to do with ego. That fact that a lecturer and other knowledgeable people questioned scrapping it and wanting sight of the survey might suggest surprise that a boat is being scrapped for a condition that is regularly treated in a minor and major way.

Sadler 32s were pretty cheap before Covid as well, at least when I was actively looking at boats in 2016.
As was already mentioned above, there aren't enough motivated owners for the number of second hand boats that we have, if a wooden boat got neglected for 10 years, it would be pretty rotten. GRP lasts forever, boats keep getting built and unless they are scrapped they never disappear, so its hardly surprising that prices are dropping.

At the end of the day, the market is the market & we can argue the reasons all day, but ultimately no matter how save able you think these boats are, no one wants to do it, that's why they're worthless.

 

[Sea Change]

If sailing is in a death spiral, how are campervans and motorhomes doing? I have no data to back this up but my impression is that they're booming. There seem to be more of them about than ever, there are endless 'van life' 'tubers, my social media is bombarded by competitions to win the things.

Personally they are of almost zero interest to me. I don't like driving. I don't even like canals very much. Give me open water any day! And running any sort of road legal vehicle is a nightmare compared to a boat. I can fix everything on my boat myself. If the engine fails, I don't care too much, I've had to sail on to my mooring before, I can do it again. I don't have to pay tax, I'm not obliged to have insurace.

Surely anybody who can afford the time and money to own and use a campervan is easily able to afford a small yacht. But of course a van can have you in another country, with cheap wine and abundant sunshine, within 24hrs, and a yacht can't. So maybe it's not so much about time and money, and more about people's expectations of what a good holiday looks like?

 

[Mark-1]

Nothing to do with ego. More that for decades boats like the sadler 32 were sought after family cruising boats and kept a certain market value of around 15k for a reasonable example. Something that if looked after coukd provide fun and adventures for little relative cost. To see that market disappear over 18 months after covid is slightly shocking and nothing to do with ego. That fact that a lecturer and other knowledgeable people questioned scrapping it and wanting sight of the survey might suggest surprise that a boat is being scrapped for a condition that is regularly treated in a minor and major way.

Scrapped is a misleading term here. It went to a scrappy who frequently sell boats as going concerns. A new custodian couldn't be found 3 weeks before Christmas. In contrast the scrappie has 'free' storage so the time pressure is off and a new owner willing to put time and effort into getting it sorted could be found in the coming months.

Maybe it will be broken up, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it had a new lease of life ahead of it.

 

[Mark-1]

if a wooden boat got neglected for 10 years, it would be pretty rotten. GRP lasts forever, boats keep getting built and unless they are scrapped they never disappear, so its hardly surprising that prices are dropping.

This.

It's especially true of dinghies. I think I counted 8 "derelict" Picos in our boat park. 40 years ago they'd have been plywood Mirrors and rotted away. Due to modern materials they're a quick wipe with a J cloth away from being in mint condition and still they change hands for peanuts or get given away because supply is infinite.

 

[flaming]

GRP lasts forever, boats keep getting built and unless they are scrapped they never disappear, so its hardly surprising that prices are dropping.

At the end of the day, the market is the market & we can argue the reasons all day, but ultimately no matter how save able you think these boats are, no one wants to do it, that's why they're worthless.

This! Great news if you are one of those who wants to save a boat that needs a lot of work, but bad news if you have one that you want to get rid of....

 

[Egret]

Will be interesting if the number of people prepared to pay £8-12000 per year (£20,000 before tax) for a 'marina' reduces with the passing of this generation in which case there may be a lot of work for the 'recyclers' as there will be a big supply and many may be too big to economically renovate.