Is boating in a death spiral?

[Laser310]

When we first arrived in France...it was as you said, three seasons...high, mid, low.....now it seems to only be two

In Brittany, the mid season for charters can start as early as mid august, with a substantial saving over high season.

As many here know, September can be great in Brittany, but as the season gets on, you should expect to lose a few days stuck in port waiting for a storm to pass, and a week really isn't enough for a charter.

On the other hand, getting "stuck" in port in Brittany isn't the worst thing that could happen.

A few years ago, I was there in late September, and met a group of Swiss charterers tied up next to us. They had two Pogo 30's with, i think, 6 per boat. They were probably doing it for a few hundred each. My wife and I were a bit embarrassed by the (relatively) palatial RM 10.70 that we had all to our selves.

Early September charters book up very quickly there - most boats are probably already taken until mid September for next year

 

[potentillaCO32]

In Brittany, the mid season for charters can start as early as mid august, with a substantial saving over high season.

As many here know, September can be great in Brittany, but as the season gets on, you should expect to lose a few days stuck in port waiting for a storm to pass, and a week really isn't enough for a charter.

On the other hand, getting "stuck" in port in Brittany isn't the worst thing that could happen.

A few years ago, I was there in late September, and met a group of Swiss charterers tied up next to us. They had two Pogo 30's with, i think, 6 per boat. They were probably doing it for a few hundred each. My wife and I were a bit embarrassed by the (relatively) palatial RM 10.70 that we had all to our selves.

Early September charters book up very quickly there - most boats are probably already taken until mid September for next year

Sailing in southern brittany in september and october can be fantastic. Even in december when the sun comes out boats come and go from the marina in la trinite, near me, in a way that just doesnt happen in the uk.
The climate in the uk is pretty constricting. Also marina costs are much lower on the french atlantic costs than in the uk.

 

[Caladh]

In response to the OP 's question, i believe that in this country sailing is in a death spiral. The new boat market has been hit as hard as the used boat market.
Before i took early retirement this year i worked in france for the last 7 years and have a house on the atlantic west coast. I still keep my boat, for now, on the east coast uk.

I think sailing on the continent is in slight decline but nowhere near the structural problems here. The la rochelle boat show was booming and small yachts have a strong market unlike in the uk.

I think everywhere the next generation have a lot of competing interests that take up less time. I do not think that sailing will recover to the levels of the 80s and 90s.

Thing is, the French see boating as an available and attainable hobby whereas here in the U.K. it’s seen as very elitist and unattainable because of the expense. Many french marinas are cooperative or council owned for the benefit of the local population rather than shareholders……..

 

[Bouba]

Thing is, the French see boating as an available and attainable hobby whereas here in the U.K. it’s seen as very elitist and unattainable because of the expense. Many french marinas are cooperative or council owned for the benefit of the local population rather than shareholders……..

It’s not quite that starry eyed…boating is taxed like it’s a wealthy person’s privilege

 

[potentillaCO32]

It’s not quite that starry eyed…boating is taxed like it’s a wealthy person’s privilege

Not sure i've been taxed in france for keeping a boat. I can have a 9m boat in la trinité marina on a 10 month contract, avoiding july and august, for quite a bit less than east coast uk marinas, let alone south

 

[Supertramp]

In response to the OP 's question, i believe that in this country sailing is in a death spiral. The new boat market has been hit as hard as the used boat market.
Before i took early retirement this year i worked in france for the last 7 years and have a house on the atlantic west coast. I still keep my boat, for now, on the east coast uk.

I think sailing on the continent is in slight decline but nowhere near the structural problems here. The la rochelle boat show was booming and small yachts have a strong market unlike in the uk.

I think everywhere the next generation have a lot of competing interests that take up less time. I do not think that sailing will recover to the levels of the 80s and 90s.

Perhaps we need to define the term "decline"?

Amount of sailing done, number of people involved, number of boats, value of boats, value of new boats, value of associated industries?

Some aspects show long term decline in the UK eg manufacturers. But does that mean UK sailing is in a death spiral?

 

[Blueboatman]

An example of sailing for a younger lot, these two claim to be in their mid20s, one an experienced sailor/ engineer, the other a architectural something or other, bought a 49ft awb as their first boat and have gone through the classic curve from paying 1/10 of the monthly rent for an apartment to that of a live aboard Danish winter berth, to the inconvenience of things breaking, the expense of replacements that simply won’t wait, and the frustration that all sailing is not balmy f3 from the beam.
And they’re heading from Scandinavia to Australia ..

Make of it what you will, I wish them luck


It is very very different to the sort of sailing I was doing at that age!

 

[Bouba]

An example of sailing for a younger lot, these two claim to be in their mid20s, one an experienced sailor/ engineer, the other a architectural something or other, bought a 49ft awb as their first boat and have gone through the classic curve from paying 1/10 of the monthly rent for an apartment to that of a live aboard Danish winter berth, to the inconvenience of things breaking, the expense of replacements that simply won’t wait, and the frustration that all sailing is not balmy f3 from the beam.
And they’re heading from Scandinavia to Australia ..

Make of it what you will, I wish them luck


It is very very different to the sort of sailing I was doing at that age!

I hate to say it...but those live aboards to save money....are killing boating. They are narrowing waterways and causing a scarcity of berths.... and they are antisocial to those boaters who actually do move on the water and leave ripples

 

[Sea Change]

I hate to say it...but those live aboards to save money....are killing boating. They are narrowing waterways and causing a scarcity of berths.... and they are antisocial to those boaters who actually do move on the water and leave ripples

There are different definitions. To me, anybody who lives on their boat full time is a liveaboard. I count my family as such.
Some of us are also cruisers, and move around pretty much like any other cruiser, although we have the luxury of time so may not move on quite so rapidly.
Others, to whom I presume you refer, are parked up in one spot indefinitely. Unfortunately this group can include those on near derelict boats who can give liveaboards in general a bad name.

 

[Bouba]

There are different definitions. To me, anybody who lives on their boat full time is a liveaboard. I count my family as such.
Some of us are also cruisers, and move around pretty much like any other cruiser, although we have the luxury of time so may not move on quite so rapidly.
Others, to whom I presume you refer, are parked up in one spot indefinitely. Unfortunately this group can include those on near derelict boats who can give liveaboards in general a bad name.

It’s more than that...it’s whole neighborhoods on rivers in major cities...not boats but floating houses. To live and boat is one thing...and I fully understand boaters getting older and going out less and less until they stop altogether. But to move on the water because you can’t afford a mortgage...to start colonizing the river bank or tow path so that even land lubbers can’t cycle past or walk their dogs ....is wrong....in my humble opinion

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I can think of ten or so marinas built in the last 30 years.

Deganwy, Peel, Douglas, Stranraer, James Watt Dock, Campbeltown, Whitehaven, Belfast, Ardglass, Ballycastle, Glenarm, Stornoway Newton, Portavadie, Lochboisdale... all new within the last 30 years.

That's just the top half of the west side of the UK and just the ones with year round protection and berth holders. If you add in ones for visitors mostly or only in the same time frame then add...

Oban Transit, Lochaline, Lochmaddy, Port Ellen, Tarbert Harris/Scalpay, Mallaig, Ullapool, Castlebay

That's my criteria that there needs to be space for at least 20 boats & with extra facilities like showers & washing machine to be called a marina. There are other smaller facilities in the same area new within the last 30 years like Kirkibost and Ulva Ferry.

I will probably have missed some.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Perhaps we need to define the term "decline"?

Amount of sailing done, number of people involved, number of boats, value of boats, value of new boats, value of associated industries?

Some aspects show long term decline in the UK eg manufacturers. But does that mean UK sailing is in a death spiral?

I think if you took every measure of sailing that you could think of it would show correlated linear decline for each of the measures in the uk.

The things you mention, value, sales of new and used boats, number of yacht club members, numbers of entrants in races and regattas, burnham week, ramsgate week, (except maybe 1 or 2 iconic ones such as rti) , numbers of sailing boats on the water each summer weekend. Etc etc.

 

[ylop]

I think if you took every measure of sailing that you could think of it would show correlated linear decline for each of the measures in the uk.

The things you mention, value, sales of new and used boats, number of yacht club members, numbers of entrants in races and regattas, burnham week, ramsgate week, (except maybe 1 or 2 iconic ones such as rti) , numbers of sailing boats on the water each summer weekend. Etc etc.

Yet ask anyone on the west of Scotland and anchorages etc are busier and distinctly more boats around than 20 yrs ago!

official data suggested an unprecedented upswing after Covid: 'Unprecedented' rise in UK watersports participation

And precovid many watersport categories were thriving: https://nationalwatersafety.org.uk/media/1150/watersports_participation_survey_2017_summary.pdf

 

[dgadee]

Yet ask anyone on the west of Scotland and anchorages etc are busier and distinctly more boats around than 20 yrs ago

I have just spent some time there and found it was not so easy to get winter/summer moorings. I was told many moved north during COVID and didn't go back home. Perhaps the south is in decline but not the north west.

 

[obmij]

Boating isn't in decline anywhere. It's not particularly easy to get an annual berth in the UK despite relentlessly rising costs and the same goes for the Mediterranean which is becoming more crowded every year.

I suspect if statistics were available for long term bluewater sailing, the numbers would be considerably higher than even 20 years ago, despite the de facto closing of the Red Sea and the obvious circumnavigation route.

The superyacht industry is also booming and more and more people are sailing as a living. It is certainly much more of a viable career than when I started coiling ropes for cash.

It is not unlikely that the small family cruiser is in decline as there are subjectively better and certainly more cost effective options out there for anyone after the family sailing experience. It is also likely that there are way too many boats still in existence and that some are now effectively worthless if selling..but they keep on making better and better boats and they keep on selling 'em!

The great thing is, if you are so inclined, owning a cruising boat is more accessible than ever - and many people do just that.

I preferred it when it was less busy

 

[steve yates]

It’s more than that...it’s whole neighborhoods on rivers in major cities...not boats but floating houses. To live and boat is one thing...and I fully understand boaters getting older and going out less and less until they stop altogether. But to move on the water because you can’t afford a mortgage...to start colonizing the river bank or tow path so that even land lubbers can’t cycle past or walk their dogs ....is wrong....in my humble opinion

So what should they do? Live on the street?

 

[steve yates]

I have just spent some time there and found it was not so easy to get winter/summer moorings. I was told many moved north during COVID and didn't go back home. Perhaps the south is in decline but not the north west.

Maryport is full with a waiting list, unheard of when I lived in cumbria, less than 10 years ago.

 

[chriss999]

It’s more than that...it’s whole neighborhoods on rivers in major cities...not boats but floating houses. To live and boat is one thing...and I fully understand boaters getting older and going out less and less until they stop altogether. But to move on the water because you can’t afford a mortgage...to start colonizing the river bank or tow path so that even land lubbers can’t cycle past or walk their dogs ....is wrong....in my humble opinion

There’s a reason for that, and it isn’t the fault of those youngsters.

 

[Bouba]

So what should they do? Live on the street?

imagine if major and minor roads started to turn into motorhome and caravan parks….and the roads became narrow…and businesses and restaurants and gardens started on sidewalks…how is it different ?

 

[Marsali_1]

imagine if major and minor roads started to turn into motorhome and caravan parks….and the roads became narrow…and businesses and restaurants and gardens started on sidewalks…how is it different ?

It is probably what happened to Lucy's neighbourhood in Olduvai Gorge...and how we ended up crossing the English Channel