Is boating in a death spiral?

[Lucky Duck]

My view of the general market for older boats is slightly different to most of the comments. I started sailing in the mid 1960's when glassfibre boats were relatively new in the market and replacing wooden boat building. They were cheaper to build, so virtually killed off wooden boat building. Over the decades, better designs have evolved, production methods have become more mechanized in giant factories - but as more boats have been produced very few of the older boats are removed from the market.

Rust, repair costs and accidents limit the total number of cars, but what destroys glassfibre boats? During the same period the demand for berths/moorings have increased, but there has been no new marinas built in the past 30 years even though there are vastly more boats now than then.

People looking to buy a boat or change their current boat are wanting larger more modern designs, they are not interested in floating camping where 6 people cram into a 30 ft boat for a holiday. They can easily afford a 10 to 20 year old boat in the 35 to 40 ft range. Basically no one wants small boats, especially old ones that are poorly maintained.

However mooring/storage costs are now becoming the death for many boats. There is no simple and cheap way to dispose of old boats, so they get dumped in cheap harbours or creeks and the owners disappear. There are plenty of marinas and boatyards that have boats that do not pay the fees. Their only option is to try and sell them to recoup the fees owing, but frequently they never get what is owed or they have to pay to remove/scrap them. Ultimately all of us end up paying via higher berthing costs to get rid of these old boats.

We all love our boats. When I bought Concerto,, she was 34 years old, but now she is 45. Perhaps I am an unusual owner as I have tried to renovate her to close to new standard as possible. She is in better condition today than when I bought her, how many of you can say the same. I know of plenty of owners who have kept a boat for over a quarter of a century, but slowly over time they become tired, have a few knocks and scrapes that do not get repaired properly. This makes it less appealing to potential buyers. When the boat does come to market, reality hits the owner.

When I was berthed in Chatham Marina, I was almost opposite 3 sailing school boats. The age range of clients was quite interesting. It was fairly strong for 20 to 30 years olds, dropped off in the 40s, but late 50's and early 60's was very buoyant. Chatting with some of these people, many planned to buy their own boat. There is certainly an influx of potential owners still entering the boating world, but what they want to buy does rule out many older smaller boats. Ultimately many of these boats need to be scrapped as they have exceeded their working life. Would most of us miss them? I doubt it.

I can think of ten or so marinas built in the last 30 years.

My own experience is the difficulty is not finding a permanent berth but the pressure on space for visitors during high season

 

[Blueboatman]

I’m sorry to hear that
Hang in there
Don’t the young up and comings understand N plus1 yet?

 

[steve yates]

Sailing has been made out to be too safe. Where is the danger in the selling of it? There is certainly loads of danger and adventure but you wouldn't think so from the press. Younger people (of both sexes) go kayaking in extreme water, hurtle down mountains on planks, hang off rocks. All requiring practice and expertise. What puts them off hanging on while putting in a reef? Maybe pictures of an elderly couple in the cockpit with a bottle of wine tied up to a Greek quay.

Naaa, 95% of them are just bumblies. They play at it, (mainly for their social media feeds), they never get very competent and rarely push the boat out risk wise. All of which is fine. It’s the other 5% that live those hobbies as a lifestyle that are really into them. But they are all cheaper. Even ski holidays if you take chartering as the sailing equivalent.

 

[Bouba]

S Coast marina prices are crazy - we all know that. BUT as long as they are visited nothing will change. As an example for “extras”, I paid just over £4 for electricity for 3 days on Cobbs Quay in Poole using their meter system. In Yarmouth I was charged £5 per DAY. However Yarmouth was rammed that weekend, Over £60 to have 4 yachts rafted on our outside. Arrived in Beaulieu river marina having had to pre book at again silly prices, to be told by the very welcoming staff member that the “electricity is free” …..doh. On it goes. Summer “season” seems to be April to October for many marinas compared to 3 season price bands in France. No wonder most of the marina companies seem to be touting for business for next year.

When we first arrived in France...it was as you said, three seasons...high, mid, low.....now it seems to only be two

 

[ylop]

Even ski holidays if you take chartering as the sailing equivalent.

It takes a lot of effort (and or compromise) to get a weeks ski holiday under £1k per person. I think you are broadly the same for charter.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

It takes a lot of effort (and or compromise) to get a weeks ski holiday under £1k per person. I think you are broadly the same for charter.

No effort at all, ski holiday wise. You’ll just end up in a crap resort full of worn out gear though. A bit like buying a manky auld boat.

 

[Sea Change]

Death spiral? I think you need to think a bit bigger.
Globally, from what I've seen, sailing has never been so popular. Everywhere we go we meet salty old cruisers who sigh wistfully about how quiet all these anchorages used to be, before the mooring fields and marinas took over. This is a common refrain in any popular destination. But, again, I'm not talking about the UK.
Is it any different to the decline of places like Blackpool and Skegness?
Yes it's a different pattern of boat usage- you either liveaboard, or you charter- but the sailing is still happening. It's just not a family of seven in a Westerly Pageant up a river somewhere in England.

 

[Ribtecer]

When we sold our last sailing boat, a 33 footer, I made my wife promise not to let me buy another boat I can't tow home.

We now have a 7m diesel inboard rib, we stack it for 3 - 4 months a year, then it comes home and spends the winter in a barn in our garden, costing nothing.

It's a compromise yes, but I get out on the Solent, and we get to have lunch in Cowes whenever we want.

The boat will go all day long on 25ltrs of fuel and it can be maintained easily at home in the comfort of its own barn.

Stacking is £650 a month!!!

Cheap south coast boating really.

 

[Supertramp]

Based on the number of boats in marinas and the number of boats out cruising in peak season, then no, I don't see boating in a death spiral.

However the nature of UK boating is changing much as other leisure activities are changing with some people spending a lot more money. A motor caravan is no longer a VW Transporter or boarded out van but now will routinely cost in excess of £100k. A bicycle was a cheap way to get around, now £3k is not unusual for a mid range model, and the new models are nothing like as easy to repair and keep running as the old ones.

When I bought a "proper" boat in retirement, I first decided where I would keep it, then looked at possibilities based on the cost of purchase plus ongoing renovation/maintenance giving me a total cost over 10 years to buy and run the boat - in my case I set myself a figure of £180k. Based on this costing approach its hard to justify spending only a few thousand on the boat when the marina costs so much more. I feel I have found a decent balance with around 1/3 for mooring costs, 1/3 for purchase and 1/3 for maintenance/improvements, spread over 10 years.

As others have said, the change is in the decline of cheap moorings and places to store and repair making it hard to own and run a boat whilst working, raising a family or living on a pension.

 

[ylop]

No effort at all, ski holiday wise. You’ll just end up in a crap resort full of worn out gear though. A bit like buying a manky auld boat.

Well a less desirable resort, older/tired gear, out of peak season and with cramped accommodation… with flights to somewhere with a long transfer etc.

…so exactly like a charter option - if you want a good location, a decent enough boat where you aren’t tripping over each other, flights that go where you actually want, and the best weather and most common holiday times and you’ll likely be looking >£1k/pp too.

I know you can beat that for both - but by doing a lot of effort / research / hunting yourself.

 

[Aardee]

Full disclosure, I work in a south coast marina operated by one of the big 3 (now 2, I guess) operators.

We're not full, but have around 90% occupancy of annual berth holders, which is pretty good in the current climate. We may be a bit unusual in that we have a large cohort of berth holders who have been here 20+ years with minimal churn, especially compared to, say, the larger Hamble marinas. This year we've lost a few who have gone to meet their maker, but we've had no problem letting their berths as their boats get sold and moved on. Interestingly while the marina is currently around 60/40 sail to motor, the last 5 "newcomers" have all been motor boats, mostly "experienced" boaters switching from sail to motor. Whether this is the start of a trend remains to be seen.

I've been around boats for 40 years and am struggling to think of a time when there wasn't talk of the demise of leisure boating. Sure, it ebbs and flows with the change in demographics and the seemingly endless cycle of boom & bust, but The Solent seems as busy as ever.

 

[steve yates]

It takes a lot of effort (and or compromise) to get a weeks ski holiday under £1k per person. I think you are broadly the same for charter.

Yup, but your food and drink costs will be much higher, resort prices up the mountain can be nuts.
Not to mention you need to find 5 other people to get those 1k pp prices, whereas you can go skiing on your own or as a couple for that.

 

[Tamar]

Try running a small commercial boat then. 5 years ago it was a nice little earner. But all the bills increase every year, but I still charge the same charter rate as I did 10 years ago. I tried increasing my fees after lockdown by 2.5pc same as the marina increase and the work just fell off to a trickle. So I reduced it back to pre lockdown prices and worked increased a bit. Commercial boating is not for the faint hearted.

 

[Blueboatman]

The country has moved to a rent model over the past generation
Cars, houses, boat berths, cards and credit and cash flow to service the lot

When once it might have taken 2 days a week to discharge financial obligations now..?
And boatbuilders say they cannot afford to build smaller simpler boats
I dunno

 

[winch2]

Sailing has been made out to be too safe. Where is the danger in the selling of it

Totally agree. When you see people walking from the car, lifejacket, oilies on and lifelines slung over the shoulder.
A lifelong sailor, old dad never wore any safety. I remember one of our last blows. He must have been late 70's and a bit decrepit.
Going thru The Needles channel wind over tide and suddenly he's up on the foredeck mucking about with me screaming at him. I unfairly grilled him upon his shaky return and his response. "Its the only time I feel really alive...up there hanging on, in charge of my own destiny with no one to help and the waves crashing over my legs". At that moment I understood him completely. So yes danger. We are all in charge of the level of danger we wish upon ourselves.

 

[Grith]

I run a Facebook page devoted to cruising trailer sailers down here in Australia and have been trying to reinvigorate some interest in this form of generally cheaper sailing/cruising with some limited success I feel. Trailer Sailer Cruising Australia for anyone interested.
Over 4000 members and reasonably strong participation given no for sale adverts allowed to keep it about sailing and cruising, tips and trips not just buy and sell like so many similar pages.
The advantages of having your cruising yacht trailerable in a country where many homes on suburban fringes or rural still have room to keep your boat beside your house or on relatively cheap hardstanding at a yacht club make this option feasible.
Personally despite the extreme cost of realestate here in Australia we found a unique and cheap slightly remote waterfront home with our own boat ramp and pontoon jetty still worth less than £400,000 after recently completing a moderate renovation and purchased a couple of years ago at under £300,000.
We feel exceptionally lucky.
My daughter is a keen and experienced sailer with formal sailing/boat handling qualifications as well but that’s a rarity these days.
We recently chartered a cheap small yacht in Poland and there were huge numbers of late teens and early twenties sailing there and apparently learning sailing is part of the schooling there for many!
Such a shame it’s not here in Australia except for a very few high end ( Private Schools here ) Public Schools in the UK.
It appears it’s available to the masses in Poland making the big difference.
My daughter first multi day cruise and extended helming of a larger yacht was when she was 12 and barely able to see over the wheel!
She learnt racing in Dingy’s like so many kids back in my youth.
Daughter at 12 now 22.

Our retirement home on the water!

 

[steve yates]

Just musing about the costs involved, I started thinking about my other interests.
I got into sailing about 10 years ago, and have bought two cheap boats. Now, £ for mile I reckon I have had amazing value for money, but…..
Prior to sailing I spent the previous 30 years mainly climbing & mountaineering, with a hefty chunk (10years plus) of white water kayaking, mountain biking, fell running and skiing in there. I lived in the alps for a couple of years just for the climbing & skiing, I have had climbing gear, alpine bear, high altitude gear, ski mountaineering gear, downhill gear,whitewater kayak,sea kayak, canadian canoe, mountain bikes, road bike, backpaking gear etc etc.
While I can’t produce actual hard data, I am pretty certain I have spent more with boats in the last 10 years than on every other hobby combined over the 30 years prior.
Even done cheaply, it is not a cheap hobby, although I guess it could be a relatively cheap way of life if you ditched the house and committed to it.

 

[steve yates]

Having said that, I doubt it has ever been any different cost wise in relation to those other hobbies, so not sure it’s in a death spiral.
I suspect it is more that the cost of just living and surviving for most folk has risen so much that there is little left for extraneous activities, and that most active leisure industry streams are feeling the pinch.
BUT cheap boats, thats a good thing

 

[Sea Change]

I guess it could be a relatively cheap way of life if you ditched the house and committed to it.

That's how we've made it work.
Boats are expensive things to own unless you're actually using them.

We've been living aboard for the past four years. We have perhaps slightly higher maintenance and repair costs due to the extra use that everything gets, but we also spend every night at anchor and have no mooring or marina fees. We no longer have to run a car which saves what feels like a small fortune.
With the rental income from our house, our boat effectively paid for itself. How's that for cheap boating?

 

[potentillaCO32]

In response to the OP 's question, i believe that in this country sailing is in a death spiral. The new boat market has been hit as hard as the used boat market.
Before i took early retirement this year i worked in france for the last 7 years and have a house on the atlantic west coast. I still keep my boat, for now, on the east coast uk.

I think sailing on the continent is in slight decline but nowhere near the structural problems here. The la rochelle boat show was booming and small yachts have a strong market unlike in the uk.

I think everywhere the next generation have a lot of competing interests that take up less time. I do not think that sailing will recover to the levels of the 80s and 90s.