Is a survey really worth it?

[brennonwilliams]

What a day it has been!! It looks like 2 of my dreams have been crushed at once… Firstly buying a house in Spain, where after 2 months of pissing around we have just found out that the property is 40 m2 shorter then on the deeds, meaning that the bank wont give us the required mortgage…. And now the yacht I have been researching and finalized everything on, (just paid a deposit) only to hear from a business associate, a guy who is a very experienced captain (70+ years old), says the boat needs a “hell of a lot of work”.

I would normally be a little suspicious except that the captain, just sailed the vessel and has no vested interest in telling me, but due to my relationship with our mutual friend, thought it only right I should know.

I did put in the contract that the purchase was subject to survey, but even a survey I am skeptical about as I’m sure the surveyor will “know” the broker. The other reason I am skeptical is that we had a survey done on our dream home, and they didn’t even pick up on the size difference.

What the F%@K!!!!!!!

My wife and I am so low at this point, it seams hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Every time we get close, we find its just some guy pissing around with a torch!!

What really gets me is that we have gone out of our way to assist the current owners of the boat as they have had some bad personal experiences of late. They know that we are not millionaires and like many other people I work 100+ hour weeks just to try and get ahead, yet they have still gone on with it.

So please, restore my faith, should I write this boat off or does anyone think a survey will point it all out?

Take care people.

 

[BrendanS]

A good surveyor will give excellent unbiased advice, irrespective of who the broker is. Where is the boat, then you can probably get personal recommendations for a surveyor from these forums

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Wilbur,

If they really want to sell, then a survey will allow you to re-negotiate the price, and perhaps reduce it enough to get any safety critical work, and possibly some cosmetic work done on the boat.... in their hearts they will know about the problems, and will ultimately have to reflect them in their price....

You should be able to find a surveyor who isn't too close to a broker.... where is the boat located?... someone here will know a broker in the location that can be trusted...

Chin up... it always looks better for a bit of contemplation, and decision or two being made...

 

[Joe_Cole]

FWIW I wouldn't expect a surveyor to measure up a house against the deeds, I would expect that kind of problem to be picked up by solicitors. It may be different in Spain though.

If you've paid the boat deposit then you won't be able to "write this boat off" unless you are prepared to write off the deposit. You'll have to get the survey done and you'll have to make sure that you appoint somebody you can trust. No decent surveyor would "fix" his survey simply because he knew the broker.

What I don't understand is, if the boat is in need of so much work, what was it like when you looked at it?

Are you sure you're not over reacting 'cos of the house problems?

 

[brennonwilliams]

Thanks all for your responses so far.

When a house surveyor says “we will check your ‘nota simple’” (deeds and land info in Spain), you expect everything to be checked, not just that the house does indeed have 2 bedrooms, information that you know from viewing it!! The house is a long and drawn out saga… it’s finished with in my mind now, a few more lessons learned.

People in this forum know that I have very little experience with boats, I have tried to ask a lot of questions and have received some excellent advice, as well as reading other peoples post and responses. Thank you all.

When I viewed the boat, it looked in good condition; the owners were very nice people and went out of their way to show me everything, not trying to hide anything and happy to answer my questions. He was especially fastidious in how he kept things and this gave me confidence that the boat was in good condition. I made other enquires and learnt that the boat had recently been lifted and its hull had been cleaned and anti-fouler applied.

As I say, I have specified subject to survey on the purchase contract, and I am due to take it out with a guy from the brokerage in a few weeks time to go over everything. I just don’t really feel like being “shafted” for more money.

I have to take other peoples advice into consideration, and so I have to ask myself, if a guy with a very good reputation and a lot of years experience, has just sailed the craft and obviously knows what he is talking about says that the boat need a lot of work, and it “looked” good to me, obviously this says to me that the problems must be with its running gear, structure or ability to be sailed safely, either way it’s not cosmetic.

I will not say where the boat lies at present as there are some very specific circumstances with this boat and her owner, and if someone knows people in this area then they would be aware of the boat and maybe the broker and I think that this may hamper with me getting my deposit back.

If I have no other choice but to take the survey, then I will give full details and ask for recommendations.

Getting a survey with a view to getting the price reduced just isn’t an option due to the circumstances of the owner and after getting the price down to half of their original asking price, I can’t expect to get it for free…

I hate writing in riddles, and I am sorry that I am being so ambiguous about specific details. I guess I was wanting to hear some positives from people that would understand how I am feeling and to provide me with their better experiences.

Thanks you everyone.

 

[Sea Devil]

I would never bother with a survey myself but I have owned boats for yonks and know what to look for and how much the possibly broken things will cost.....

If you do not know about boats then you cannot possibly have any idea of what may be/ is wrong.

Surveyors are useful in your situation and if the price is substantial - then 'fly' one in - do a cash deal with the surveyor - what you want is an independent valuation and opinion of the condition the boat is in.

If there has not been one done recently then you will find it hard - almost impossible to get insurance without one!

Ask the broker for a copy of the last survey - remember - no survey = no insurance!

You might as well do it now before you hand over the dosh...

Have you checked the prices asked of similar boats on the market?
These are always at least 10% more than the selling price..

This is the edit bit :- maybe you have just had a lucky escape with the house and maybe the boat as well.... There are always other boats and houses on the market - buying is easy but if you pay too much - get dodgy boat or house it can very very difficult to sell it on.

 

[Trevethan]

"Requires a hell of a lot of work"

That covers a great deal,

You say your man took it for a test sail. It doubnt he could learn anything about how she is under water from that but he will have heard the engine, observed the rigging, sails and seen the general state of the vessel.

You need to get a clearer picture about what work he thinks is needed.
You then need a good surveyor -- consider bringing one in from outside the area, or a specialist in the particular design or hull material.

Tell him your captain's convcerns.

You say they have cut teh price by half -- that means either they are keen to sell or the starting prices was way too high.

Check out the YBW for sale section for suimilar vessels. Get an idea of the price spectrum. The price agreed so far is at the bottom of that range squeezing some more cash off could be tough if the upholstery is a buit tatty or some wood needs varnishing.

If however the engine is buggered or the mast is about to collapse you have the chance to get most or all of those costs taken off the final price.

Sounds to me like you thought you had a real bargain, but maybe its not quite as good value as first thought, but as long as you get fair value you shouldn't feel too upset.

Go for the survey get the engine surveyed, oil analysed, get your surveyor to go over with a fine tooth comb and see what he says

All the best

Nick

 

[smee]

Some newbies I know thought they were getting a bargain boat as it was priced at just over half the usual market price! They decided to save the few hundred quid the survey would have cost them, as they had looked at it in the water and it "looked fine". Having been a broker and seen the state some boats can be in and "look fine" I thought they were mad and told them so, but they thought a few hundred quid saved was worth it. They bought it, and took it out of the water. It had raging osmosis! It cost so much to fix they won't even break even now, let alone make the profit they expected! Moral of the story - get a survey, the few hundred quid spent could save thousands of pounds and hours of stress!

No surveyer worth his salt would write a "good" survey to satisfy his broker friends as it is the surveyors rear end on the line not the brokers!

When you've seen a few hundred boats and the wierd and wonderful defects that can hide beneath the surface just waiting to fool the unwary, maybe then you can consider buying without a survey; otherwise, your'll need a big wallet on standby and a strong ticker - unless you are VERY lucky.

 

[Koeketiene]

[ QUOTE ]

No surveyer worth his salt would write a "good" survey to satisfy his broker friends as it is the surveyors rear end on the line not the brokers!

[/ QUOTE ]

In my (limited) experience, surveyors seem very good at covering themselves both ways. Eager to satisfy both buyer and seller.

As a buyer, phrases to look out for are: "appears in working order, "present", "no significant amount", "reasonable wear and tear",... These usually mean only one thing: "trouble".

If the sale of Yanita goes through (next week - fingers crossed), there are 3 people I'm taking down to "survey" our next one: 2 former colleagues (1 marine electrician, 1 marine engineer) and a friend who used to work for a rigger.
They know their stuff, AND they're on MY side.

 

[Sixpence]

Just a little input , I know a person who has been sailing for years and considers himself a bit of an expert , however , he pointed out problems on my boat that in his opinion were disastrous and had my wife worried sick until he cleared off and I told her that the problem was already known and the solution simple . The message is FIND OUT WHAT HE OLD SEA DOG THINKS IS WRONG AND SEE HOW FAST AND FURIOUS THE SOLUTIONS COME WHEN YOU PUT THEM ON A FORUM . However , you will still need a surveyors report to get insurance . I do marine electrics and when I was called by a distraught sailor who had been told to fit an electric bilge pump he thought this was disastrous , the job was done the next day , insurance sorted , sailed on the next tide , one happy bunny .

 

[elaineparry]

Short answer YES. The surveyor should point out all the problems with the boat and they should be put right at the owners expense. Just purchased a super maramu, the surveyor pointed out that the turbo was seized, the owner replaced it. The cost of the survey was more than met by the money he saved us.

 

[mchinery]

I would recommend a survey to anyone purchasing any boat. I went done the rocky road of not having a survey when buying my first boat and learned to hard way. I had to re-build 50% of the hull, all the decks and most of the superstructure. A very expensive lesson learned although I did learn a great deal from the experience but it was a costly one!

Go for a reputable company as a dodgy survey is not worth the paper its written on and is money down the drain.

 

[andy_wilson]

purchase was subject to survey

If you signed a standard contract then you better have a survey within the specified timescale, and agree terms (or withdrawal) within the specified timescale.

If not they can hold you to the contract, and if they wish sell the vessel for whatever they can and sue you for the difference.

You have a head start, appoint a qualified surveyor knowledgable in this type of construction (and design if possible) and furnish him with the thoughts and feelings of your test-sailor.

"gone out of our way to assist the current owners of the boat as they have had some bad personal experiences of late"

"they know that we are not millionaires"

Sorry, but so what? They have an objective of getting the best price the open market can provide. You have the objective of paying the lowest price you can justify. However, you have signed a binding contract implying that you will take the advice of an independant survey. If the surveyor says it is a disaster but at the price can be made safe if you spend as much again, then that's the way it is.

 

[brennonwilliams]

Re: purchase was subject to survey

Thanks all for your comments…

I have tracked down the “old sea dog” (who turned out to be a genuine guy) and extracted every last drop out of him.

The boat is a Rob Humphries designed MG 34RS crusiser/racer. The gentleman thought it was still for sale at the original price (€50) and so strongly vented his thoughts.

The rigging needs replacing, and all the safety and navigation gear has been removed from the boat.

I asked was there anything else. He said, no the boat is extremely fast, has no structural problems and the engine has just been serviced with new seals put in and it runs like a dream. The interior is like I said, in great condition and all the sails are also in good condition as well.

So I breathed a sigh of relief!! Now I look forward to the test sail and hopefully appointing a surveyor soon. (New post added for recommendations)

I take what you said in the last statement Mr. Wilson, and whilst it is true that we are both trying to achieve a goal, a long time a go I was particularly ruthless with the way in which I dealt with people, to the point that I believe I had lost my own humanity.

Whilst I can be as hard as the next person, I now believe that what comes around goes around, and although others may not treat me with the same compassion and kindness I offer them, I can keep my head up high for being the better person.

If I have a choice between being materialistically wealthy and an absolute [--word removed--] or poor with the respect of people around me knowing I am a decent and genuine person, I choose to be poor any day of the week.

Thanks again all for being so supportive.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Check this on the MG 34

2 things - first make sure the survey AND that you inform the seller of defects discovered - are inside the date limit of on the contract - other wise you will have bough the boat by default. You will not have lost just your deposit, but will be legally liable for the full purchase price.

Secondly - MG construction used a GRP Floor girder matrix. This was bonded to the hull using a brittle glue. If at some time the boat has been grounded (not necessarliy heavily) this bond will have cracked. The delamination of the bond is then gradual, but will extend to a point that the floor matrix is no longer providing stiffness to the bottom. YOU CANNOT SEE THIS DAMAGE FROM THE INSIDE.

The onlyway to check this is to insist that the surveyor puts the full weight of the boat on the keel and checks any distortion of the hull. Many Surveyors do not do this.

How do I know? - my uncle owned one which cost £24,000 to repair, which theinsurance paid for.

Don't be put off by this - the MG is a fun boat, and if ok - no problem - just remember its achilles heel (along with many others) - avoid the bumps!

 

[rpthomas]

"Requires a hell of a lot of work"

This is so unspecific as to be positively unhelpful. In your present state of mind re the spanish house, it might be that you are reacting too quickly. My suggestions are:

1. Get your friend to write you a specific list of the work that he thinks needs to be done.

2. Appoint an independent surveyor (not one recommended by the broker, or you will continue to worry) by asking around either on this forum or by checking with YBDSA (http://www.ybdsa.co.uk/list_surveyors.asp)

3. Give your old salt's list to the surveyor to double-check, and before he / she does the survey, talk to him / her about your needs and your worries. The relationship you have with the surveyor is important.

4. Get a reputable yard to cost the repairs suggested by the survey, and put it in a letter to you.

5. If you really are worried still, you can always spend a few hundred on getting a second opinion on the survey you have had done.

Then, as you have put 'subject to survey', if things are wrong and the negotiations on price falter, you can pull out - hopefully without loss.

If you liked the boat, then stick with it. It may well be worth it in the end.

 

[capsco]

Get your friend to write a list
Get a surveyor
spend a few hundred quid on a second opinion
What sort of check should he carry out next ??????

 

[brennonwilliams]

Thanks for all the great advice to all.

Sitting the dinghy on the keel seams harsh, infact i sought of squinted with pain (similar to being kicked in the groin) when I read it. I understand what you are saying but let me ask you this, if the boat snaps in half when this test is being done, I'm liable aren't I?

Thanks for the list of surveyors by the way.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that I am a nervous wreck, I mean hell, I went to go to work last wednesday and found that my car has been stolen.... I just laughed.. what else could I do..

Now the insurance wont pay out... hahahah... some saying about cats or was it mirrors... who knows..

take it easy all..