Is a bow thruster worth the money?

[RupertW]

Ours doesn't turn on a sixpence.

Then get somebody who knows how to show you. It must be really frustrating to have all this trouble in "tight marinas". A day of own boat tuition would open things up for you enormously.

I can't think of a boat that a sailing instructor couldn't turn in it's own length, crosswind or not.

 

[Victoria Sponge]

The OP was talking of 33 a footer that wasnt an AWB

I know he was.

 

[Dockhead]

How many times can the same debate be held, with the same people making the same argument over and over again . . .

We just did this one a few weeks ago . . .

To the OP: You would profit from reading the archives. Lots of good discussion.

I'll be repeating myself (like everyone else on here), but in my opinion the value of a bow thruster goes up rapidly with the size of the boat, becoming really important once the boat is too big to fend off by hand, or push or pull around by hand. That would be over 50'.

I would probably not want one on a 33' boat. There are downsides -- cost, weight, drag of the tunnel. I sailed for a couple of decades on a 37' boat without a bowthruster and never missed it. OTOH, this boat had a long keel and could not reverse straight, and I had a lot of hairy moments with her, so perhaps she would have profited from a thruster and I didn't know what I was missing.

My present boat is 54' on deck and the thruster is extremely useful. I would not want to be without it, although I daresay I wouldn't stop sailing her if the thruster quit working. Don't believe the nonsense about thrusters being a substitute for boat handling skills -- they are not and cannot make up for lack of skill. On the contrary, they are fairly complex tools to use and require even more skill to use well. They give you another tool for pushing the boat in a different way and can be extremely useful -- more than one can imagine who has never used one.

Top things you can do with a thruster:

1. Positive steering of the boat when going in reverse.
2. Creating sideways motion in either direction to get in and out of tight spots.
3. Getting off pontoons without scraping, by using thruster and cross-rudder to generate sideways motion off the pontoon.
4. Small corrections of bow position.
5. Bringing the bow back in while berthing if it gets blown off a little (if it gets blown off a lot, a thruster won't help).

I never use a thruster coming into a berth other than for a correction as in Case 5 above; always use it leaving, if for nothing else to avoid scraping anything. On a small boat many -- but not all! -- of these functions can be duplicated by warping, but this is laborious and quite risky -- since the warps often snag, sometimes with awful results.

Prop kick can be used to advantage if you happen to be berthed the right way to, and don't need to go straight back, but this is a very poor substitute for the ability to reverse straight, and to move sideways when you need to.

But the cost of weight and drag on a 33' boat would probably not be worth it, at least for me. I would in your place buy a boat which reverses and maneuvers well, rather than install a thruster in a boat which maneuvers poorly (like my old boat). For me, I would start considering a thruster at probably about 45'.

 

[Otter]

What does it really matter if a BT helps? And anyway, you don't try and get into some of the marinas we go in with a Thames barge. A lot of the marinas we go in are very tight, with little or no room for error. Why spoil a great day's sailing by getting into a pickle in a marina and worrying about damaging your boat, or worse someone else's boat. Your post is a bit pompous to tell you the truth.

I agree, but still can't figure out why other people are against the idea? Why would they have an opinion about someone else's manoeuvring gear? Considering the huge number of new yachts that have them and the high percentage of yachts laid up for winter you see with them - I wonder if so many people had them but didn't like them, would they still get fitted? Having fitted one last year for the first time I'm a convert. Maybe it's something you need to experience first hand?

 

[RupertW]

For me, I would start considering a thruster at probably about 45'.

Wow - you have shifted my entrenched position with your whole post. I too would consider it above 45ft only, but that may be partly because that is bigger than anything I've owned. Certainly a 50 or 60 footer, well handled with occasional use of the thruster, seems right.

 

[Victoria Sponge]

Then get somebody who knows how to show you. It must be really frustrating to have all this trouble in "tight marinas". A day of own boat tuition would open things up for you enormously.

I can't think of a boat that a sailing instructor couldn't turn in it's own length, crosswind or not.

We actually had a day of own boat tuition and even the sailing instructor struggled to get our boat to do what he wanted it to do.

We don't profess to be fantastic boat handlers. We just enjoy the boat and the sailing. We're very happy with our bow thruster, because it makes our lives easier.

 

[Elessar]

We've just bought a Countess 33, which, as she's centre cockpit and heavy, will probably be a bit of an effort to moor in tight spaces as I'll be single handed with a willing passenger, who I happen to be married to.
Therefore, I'm thinking of getting a bow thruster.
What are the ups and downs of a bow thruster and what do I need?
And how much?

Upside you can move sideways. Impossible without one. Gives you extra options. It will allow you to get into places that are impossible without one. And if you do make a mistake and end up side on, down wind or down tide, to a hazard you can move sideways away from it. (steer towards hazard, gear into forward, thrust away from hazard and you move sideways away from it)

Upside you can save bothering to spring off things, which is popular with the crew.

Downside they cost a couple of k.

They make boating more pleasurable. Like winches do. You don't need one, but life is better with one.

If you only use it once a year, it may be the once that gets you out of a spot.

 

[Dockhead]

Then get somebody who knows how to show you. It must be really frustrating to have all this trouble in "tight marinas". A day of own boat tuition would open things up for you enormously.

I can't think of a boat that a sailing instructor couldn't turn in it's own length, crosswind or not.

Although I am resisting the "bowthrusters are a substitute for boat handling skills" brigade, as an intellectually honest person I have to agree with this.

A thruster makes it easier to turn around faster, but there is no boat on the planet which can't be turned in its own length without a thruster. I don't use my thruster turning around -- it's not needed. Slight forward momentum in forward gear with the rudder hard over, then a hard kick in reverse to kill the forward momentum. The magic comes from the fact that the kick in reverse kills forward momentum, but does not kill the angular momentum, so you are left spinning in place. Always tremendously impressive trick for when you have non-sailors on board.

Worked even on my old long-keeled boat, which handled like a pig.

For some reason which I've never understood, it even works against the direction of prop kick, although it works better, obviously, if you are turning in the direction where your prop kick will add to your angular momentum.

 

[lw395]

There are times when we would have loved a bowthruster - usually when approaching pontoons with wind and or tide really not helping.
Overall, that has not really been a common occurence so we haven't gone to the trouble or expense of having one fitted. I usually opt for finding somewhere easier to park. We know that Claymore really hates berthing starboard-side to so if there is a port hand berth we would usually try for it.
I think that the key really is that if your permanent berth is a really tricky one to get to or away from and is a cause of stress then go ahead.
The luddite quasi-purists are always going to be critical of your lack of skills - which is to miss the point - but hey ho there you go.

If having a thruster means you can go places you might otherwise avoid, it may well be worthwhile.
I did my YM prep on a boat with a thruster, we were not supposed to use it, but knowing it was there probably helped us learn, because there was something in had if we misjudged things. A lot of AWB owners without thrusters never learn to get the best out of handling their boats because the consequences of a mistake are expensive. A stupid whirring noise and looking a bit silly is better than expensive.
Used judiciously, it can reduce the demands on the crew, it can be an alternative to a lot of springing for example. Used in conjunction with springs, you can get out of tight spaces without heaving on other boats sometimes.
Also, a lot of people are sailing with minimal crew these days.
I think perhaps thrusters are a bit like ABS, nice to have, but can be relied on excessively by bad drivers.

 

[Victoria Sponge]

We have twin rudders and no prop wash on our boat, so a bow thruster makes our lives much easier. We sailed on her for four years without, and did learn a few tricks. When we chartered a similar boat with a single rudder, you wouldn't believe the difference, the boat actually did what you wanted it to do. I'm sure you sailors who've been sailing since you were in nappies know what you're talking about and would no doubt be able to get our boat to respond, despite the lack of prop wash! We like our bow thruster though. Thank you.

 

[Elessar]

Although I am resisting the "bowthrusters are a substitute for boat handling skills" brigade, as an intellectually honest person I have to agree with this.

A thruster makes it easier to turn around faster, but there is no boat on the planet which can't be turned in its own length without a thruster. I don't use my thruster turning around -- it's not needed. Slight forward momentum in forward gear with the rudder hard over, then a hard kick in reverse to kill the forward momentum. The magic comes from the fact that the kick in reverse kills forward momentum, but does not kill the angular momentum, so you are left spinning in place. Always tremendously impressive trick for when you have non-sailors on board.

Worked even on my old long-keeled boat, which handled like a pig.

For some reason which I've never understood, it even works against the direction of prop kick, although it works better, obviously, if you are turning in the direction where your prop kick will add to your angular momentum.

You don't use a thruster to turn a boat. You have a more powerful engine and rudder to do that. Why use the inferior thing? If you use a thruster to turn, you are poor at boat handling.

 

[sailorman]

You don't use a thruster to turn a boat. You have a more powerful engine and rudder to do that. Why use the inferior thing? If you use a thruster to turn, you are poor at boat handling.

i believe that is where we came in

 

[Elessar]

If having a thruster means you can go places you might otherwise avoid, it may well be worthwhile.
I did my YM prep on a boat with a thruster, we were not supposed to use it, but knowing it was there probably helped us learn, because there was something in had if we misjudged things. A lot of AWB owners without thrusters never learn to get the best out of handling their boats because the consequences of a mistake are expensive. A stupid whirring noise and looking a bit silly is better than expensive.
Used judiciously, it can reduce the demands on the crew, it can be an alternative to a lot of springing for example. Used in conjunction with springs, you can get out of tight spaces without heaving on other boats sometimes.
Also, a lot of people are sailing with minimal crew these days.
I think perhaps thrusters are a bit like ABS, nice to have, but can be relied on excessively by bad drivers.

wise words

 

[lw395]

Then get somebody who knows how to show you. It must be really frustrating to have all this trouble in "tight marinas". A day of own boat tuition would open things up for you enormously.

I can't think of a boat that a sailing instructor couldn't turn in it's own length, crosswind or not.

I've been on several boats where I've been advised not to try going astern, by a very experienced YM examiner. Turning in your own length is not the issue.

We seem to be seeing bigger boats and tighter gaps in many marinas, I suspect the chaps who design marinas assume we all have thrusters or twin-screw sunseekers?

 

[Elessar]

i believe that is where we came in

I don't think so. A lot of people here state that if you have a thruster you are some sort of underclass. What tosh. And is probably because they don't know what a thruster can do.

Searush for example really doesn't need one. He can handle a boat and rarely goes into marinas, so it's a waste for him. The odd time it would save him springing off a wall or something doesn't make it worth it.

But clearly he hasn't used one so then talks nonsense about becoming dependant one one (sorry SR I like you and agree with much of your nonsense, just not this bit )

Talk of ropes here, ropes there and extra fenders. I bet those people are at the helm with their superior skill, barking at their long suffering wives (when, to generalise, women tend to make better boat handlers) to rig all this unnecessary stuff and then moan down the pub that their wife doesn't like sailing!

 

[Hoolie]

... ... ...

Any one is free to do as they wish, all I am trying to point out is that while a Bow thruster might be useful on a really big boat, a 33' doesn't really need it.

Perhaps it's a nice to have, but the vast majority of sailing boats 36' & under manage well enough without.

Ours is just over 40' and we manage well enough, except under extreme conditions that even a bow thruster wouldn't cope with. You learn to handle it - and use lines when needed.

A guy with a mobo just along from us uses his bow thruster ALL THE TIME getting out of the marina. I begin to wonder whether his rudder works at all

 

[Elessar]

Ours is just over 40' and we manage well enough, except under extreme conditions that even a bow thruster wouldn't cope with. You learn to handle it.

A guy with a mobo just along from us uses his bow thruster ALL THE TIME getting out of the marina. I begin to wonder whether his rudder works at all

a mobo rudder usually doesn't at marina speeds - they are the size of a peice of A4 paper.

Twin engine mobos leave the wheel central, and select the engine that give the propwash in the right direction to turn the boat. Then use the thruster to move sideways.

Single shaft drive mobos like say an antares 30, it has a single 370hp engine with a huge prop. The propwash is so extreme that they are simple unmanageable without a thruster, so they fit a large powerful one. This is an exception, and in this case you DO use the thruster to turn the boat.

As mobo rudder are so small, the thruster can be used as a rudder when going astern too on a single, again by leaving the wheel central. This may even work on a yacht, don't know not tried it.

With this guy though there is another explanation - he could just be **** at boat handling.........

 

[Poignard]

. . . .
Also, a lot of people are sailing with minimal crew these days.. . . .

That's a good point.

I think many couples have boats that are too big for them to comfortably handle, especially if they are not very agile. The high freeboard of modern yachts makes it difficult for madame to leap off with the lines (it's usually her that has to do it ) and, combined with minimal under water profile, makes the boat blow sideways in any breeze when manouvering slowly.

Given that, it's no wonder people feel the need for any gadget that makes life easier for them. As for me and the Old Guvnor, we are happy with our 28-footer with low freeboard and a long keel. It's easy to step on and off and the boat maintains steerage way at very low speeds.

 

[lw395]

Although I am resisting the "bowthrusters are a substitute for boat handling skills" brigade, as an intellectually honest person I have to agree with this.

A thruster makes it easier to turn around faster, but there is no boat on the planet which can't be turned in its own length without a thruster. I don't use my thruster turning around -- it's not needed. Slight forward momentum in forward gear with the rudder hard over, then a hard kick in reverse to kill the forward momentum. The magic comes from the fact that the kick in reverse kills forward momentum, but does not kill the angular momentum, so you are left spinning in place. Always tremendously impressive trick for when you have non-sailors on board.

Worked even on my old long-keeled boat, which handled like a pig.

For some reason which I've never understood, it even works against the direction of prop kick, although it works better, obviously, if you are turning in the direction where your prop kick will add to your angular momentum.

I personally find I don't sail yachts often enough to be as good at close quarters handling as I'd like to be.
Even when I owned my own boat, I found at the start of the season my skills had degraded compared to at the end of a three week cruise. I used to play around reversing up to my swinging mooring, MOB practice, trying to teach SWMBO (she is a better helm than I am at teaching), so I reckon I was better than many, but I still found a 40ft boat quite stressful to park in a few places. Lezardrieux (sp?) springs to mind, tight marina, french bloke shouting instructions to follow him up a blind alley and an unexpected eddy of current.
That was a 'my next boat might have a bowthruster' moment!
I didn't hit anything but a little nudge of bow would have substituted for several bursts of throttle and reversals of helm. I think the bloke on the next boat might have preferred that?
Not sure I fancy the drag from the holes in the hull though?

 

[Hoolie]

a mobo rudder usually doesn't at marina speeds - they are the size of a peice of A4 paper.

Twin engine mobos leave the wheel central, and select the engine that give the propwash in the right direction to turn the boat. Then use the thruster to move sideways.

Single shaft drive mobos like say an antares 30, it has a single 370hp engine with a huge prop. The propwash is so extreme that they are simple unmanageable without a thruster, so they fit a large powerful one. This is an exception, and in this case you DO use the thruster to turn the boat.

As mobo rudder are so small, the thruster can be used as a rudder when going astern too on a single, again by leaving the wheel central. This may even work on a yacht, don't know not tried it.

I accept your logic as I don't have a mobo. But there are others around us with bigger and seemingly more difficult to handle mobos that use their bow thrusters very sparingly, if at all.