Is 35ft really a starter boat?

[GrahamM376]

20 years ago a 35 ft boat was considered to be ideal for a cruising couple, and we have found that to be so. There seems to be a general belief now that 'bigger is better', applicable to motorhomes also. Magazines rarely point out the problems associated with starting in what many here would consider to be boats that are too big.

We know two retired couples who after years of sailing upgraded from lower 30s boats to mid 40s and are considering selling after a 2 or 3 years as the are having problems with the extra size when berthing. In both cases crew are not very mobile and find getting off quickly difficult as well as heavier line work when windy. Both will be downsizing.

 

[johnalison]

When we started cruising, after my moving up from dinghies, we bought a 22' Cirrus. Our jealousy extended to those with 26' boats. So we got a 26' Mystere and everyone seemed to be sailing 29s. So we got a Sadler 29, and everyone else was sailing 34s. Now that I have a 34, the basic boat seems to be a 38'+, so I know that I will never catch up! but at least have the satistfaction of knowing that I have grown into my boat and would have no difficulty handling a 60 footer if called up to do so, unlike many (not all) Benjibav sailors that I see bumbling around harbours, mostly kept out of trouble by the easy handling of modern cruisers and powerful engines.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We know two retired couples who after years of sailing upgraded from lower 30s boats to mid 40s and are considering selling after a 2 or 3 years as the are having problems with the extra size when berthing. In both cases crew are not very mobile and find getting off quickly difficult as well as heavier line work when windy. Both will be downsizing.

One of the recent mags (PBO?) has an interesting article from a couple who moved down (in size - up in taste) to a Frances 26,

 

[Sailfree]

One upon a time there were real sailors that went out in small cramped boats with smelly bilges and washing up the dishes with salty sea water. Toilets were portaloos or do it over the side or in a bucket then over the side.

It was a real mans world.

Then some silly men decided it would be nice to take their wives/girlfriends sailing. Some even took them to warmer countries and chartered nice big boats.

Now there are two types of sailors - real men and us pansies that sail with their wives in boats with decent toilets, hot and cold running water and in our case even a separate shower cubicle and white leather upholstery! Because of all these facilities we need a bigger boat and as we can't manage berthing a 43' in a cross wind we have bow thrusters.

Oh to be a real man like times of old!!

Not for me though as I like sex while I am away sailing and I never want to 'feel' a real man!!!

 

[awol]

I never want to 'feel' a real man!!!

But your wife might like to!

 

[fergie_mac66]

For many people an AWB in the 32-35' range probably is a starter boat. Some bloke trying to persuade a non-sailing wife to let him buy is probably going to have to face up to it that the Contessa 26 is going to have to come off the short-list.

Sound like not only a non-sailing wife but also arm candy def wouldnt put to sea with a decoration

 

[Resolution]

But your wife might like to!

 

[Resolution]

They may be right, too, if by "sailing" they mean "having a holiday home in a marina and occasionally venturing out to motor to another marina or even put the sails up if it's a really nice day". Not, of course, that that is how all 35 foot boats are used, but I suspect it's how most 35' starter boats are used. Blackbeard has it spot on, and in my local marina I notice that the least used boats are often the longer, newer ones.

Does anyone have some hard statistics to support this oft-repeated assertion, that big, new boats are used less than smaller, older boats? From my experience of sailing from the Hamble over several years I would agree that there are always a lot more boats left on their berths even on a sunny weekend than are out in the Solent. But are the older, smaller boats used more? I doubt if the size or age makes much difference.

What is beyond doubt is that for new cruiser boat buyers anything under 30 feet LOA is now definitely small. 35 to 40 is the "normal" range for couples with modest sailing aspirations, and for ocean-going or liveaboards 45ft plus is pretty much essential.

PS My first boat was a 25ft Folkboat, which my wife and I shared with another couple in Hong Kong. It was lovely - but slow, cramped in bedding space and restricted in domestic services. Forty years on the four of us still sail together most years, and really appreciated the comfort and space of my 40 footer. And the loo.......

 

[PhillM]

I wonder if there is a coloration between the change from wood to GRP. As wooden boats get bigger, the maintenance work and costs increase. I can for example happily manage the work on my 25' but would not feel able to find the time or pay someone else to do the work on a 35' MAB. Whereas, while the cost of replacement stuff increases there is still a lot less to do to keep a 35' GRP boat in good condition.

I also did a monetary comparison of my boat new and the value of money today. It was basically the price of one year's salary for a GP (who was in fact the first buyer). If you take the same profession and one year salary you would be able to buy a decent 35' AWB.

 

[Tranona]

Wouldn't they then have described it as "among the smallest boats available for those considering buying new"? I don't think alternative readings work here - the magazines are generally convinced, or trying to convince us, that 35' is about the right length for someone to start sailing in.

So, would the term "entry level" suit your sensibilities? Can never understand why people get so upset about such terms when it is clear from the posts here that individuals put their own interpretation on the. Often as we see hear driven by their personal prejudices.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So, would the term "entry level" suit your sensibilities?

Only if they were clear about what they were talking about entry to (if you follow my grammar). You are interpreting it as "entry to new boat ownership", I think of it as "entry to sailing" ... absent a definition we can discuss this fruitlessly for ages.

However, it seems clear to me that there is a significant amount of boat size inflation going on. As far as the RYA is concerned, for example, a Contessa 32 is too small a boat to be used for a Yachtmaster^TM exam and a Sadler 29 is too small for miles in it to count, but twenty years ago plenty of people did Yachtmaster^TM miles and exams in Centaurs and other significantly smaller boats.

 

[Babylon]

What is beyond doubt is that... and for ocean-going or liveaboards 45ft plus is pretty much essential.

This couple seem to manage both pretty well in their 27-footer: http://www.bosunbird.com/page22.php

 

[ksutton]

This couple seem to manage both pretty well in their 27-footer: http://www.bosunbird.com/page22.php

View attachment 50482

Another amazing Vancouver yacht voyager, size doesn't make that much difference, once you have a "fit for purpose" boat.

 

[Bobc]

Only if they were clear about what they were talking about entry to (if you follow my grammar). You are interpreting it as "entry to new boat ownership", I think of it as "entry to sailing" ... absent a definition we can discuss this fruitlessly for ages.

However, it seems clear to me that there is a significant amount of boat size inflation going on. As far as the RYA is concerned, for example, a Contessa 32 is too small a boat to be used for a Yachtmaster^TM exam and a Sadler 29 is too small for miles in it to count, but twenty years ago plenty of people did Yachtmaster^TM miles and exams in Centaurs and other significantly smaller boats.

It's supposedly called progress. Cars have got bigger, TVs have got bigger, sofas have got bigger, and a lot of people's backsides have got bigger too!

 

[awol]

I don't know why you lot are getting exercised by crap written by a journalist in a magazine. You must have noticed that, apart from serious peer reviewed scripts, any journalistic writings on a subject of which you have personal knowledge tend to miss the point.
For me "entry level" and/or "starter boat" are rather insulting short-hand terms for a vessel that no experienced sailor could thole. YOMV.

 

[Bobc]

I remember when I was young and my dad got his first boat (Vivacity 650). The most populat boat at the time was the centaur, and anything over 30ft was considered very large.

I remember saying to SWMBO about 10 years ago that the Bavaria 36 was the new Centaur (really popular, great value, family boat), but since then I think that would now be something like a 38-40fter.

So I can imagine that today's equivilent of my dad's old Vivacity would be something like a Bavaria Easy 9.7

 

[Resolution]

This couple seem to manage both pretty well in their 27-footer: http://www.bosunbird.com/page22.php

View attachment 50482

Fair point. Thankfully there will always be some resourceful people who can do great things on a small budget. But for most people the reality of living on board a small boat loses its attraction eventually and they either trade up in size or return to shore life. I would match your successful Vancouver couple with a customer who bought a ******* 32 to sail off over the horizon with his wife. She gave up before they reached Gibraltar and I last saw him stuck in port in Spain a year later and going rapidly "peculiar". Sad way to enter retirement. Maybe in a 43 footer like Sailfree she would have stayed the course and kept him normal.

 

[Poignard]

Another amazing Vancouver yacht voyager, size doesn't make that much difference, once you have a "fit for purpose" boat.

Plus a "fit for purpose" crew. :encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

This couple seem to manage both pretty well in their 27-footer: http://www.bosunbird.com/page22.php

And not a single one of those miles would count as valid experience for Yachtmaster^TM. A cruise in company on a fine summer's day from Cowes to Cherbourg in a Bavaria 36, on the other hand, would do just fine.

 

[Tranona]

Only if they were clear about what they were talking about entry to (if you follow my grammar). You are interpreting it as "entry to new boat ownership", I think of it as "entry to sailing" ... absent a definition we can discuss this fruitlessly for ages.

However, it seems clear to me that there is a significant amount of boat size inflation going on. As far as the RYA is concerned, for example, a Contessa 32 is too small a boat to be used for a Yachtmaster^TM exam and a Sadler 29 is too small for miles in it to count, but twenty years ago plenty of people did Yachtmaster^TM miles and exams in Centaurs and other significantly smaller boats.

You are missing the point. The whole purpose of such terms is to capture the essence of what you really trying to communicate, not to be grammatically correct or even precise. They are shorthand and assume that listeners have the same reference points as the speaker. Clearly that is not the case here.

If you want to be precise in your meaning or qualify how you are using it, then it ceases to be a shorthand term and becomes a sentence. We use shorthand terms all the time if we are engaging with people who share reference points because it saves time.

So not everybody on this forum shares those same reference points, but what is sad is that many try to convince you that their's is the only one that is valid.