ips

Portofino said:
Gearbox I take it is the thing usually found at the back of an engine ( in car it may have several forward gears ) in boat they have - well at least VP 1 forward and 1 reverse .this is in the boat .connected to the outside bit by a universal joint
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No; the drive shaft/ universal joint assembly is connected to the coupler ( on the engine flywheel) and the outdrive upper assembly. There is no gearbox inside the boat between the engine and outdrive in a standard outdrive installation.
 
Portofino said:
Gearbox I take it is the thing usually found at the back of an engine .... this is in the boat .connected to the outside bit by a universal joint
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LOL, again no cigar I'm afraid, as GHR already pointed out.
Anyway, FYI, in the Merc Alpha (possibly the most popular outdrive ever), the fwd/rev bit is even buried down in the lower case, behind the prop.
And tbh, there are also a very few outdrives where the thing usually found at the back of an engine actually is where you suggest, i.e. attached to the engine.
But that's mostly dry sump racing stuff, surely not the VP drives which you had in mind.
 
Hi Lisa,

Like galps, we can also provide some first hand experience of IPS having owned our Targa 44 GT from new since 2010 and have clocked up some 200 hours with several channel crossings. Firstly as I have mentioned on here a few times before with IPS discussions, we moved from a 2007 Phantom 40 on shafts, with the same VP D6 370 engines. Interesting and although not particularly scientific, but we do run a full log for fuel consumption analysis, the T44 is obviously 4ft longer and slightly heavier, however given we have the same D6 370 engines, we’ve been retuning the same fuel consumption figures as we got from the Phantom 40.

Having moved up in size of boat, to me this demonstrates there's some fuel efficiency benefits from IPS - although probably not to the same degree Volvo were originally claiming.
With regard to running costs, there is a price to pay, but lets put this into perspective. We have all our work carried out by our local VP agent, always have done and although we could probably get this done cheaper else-where, we like the convenience they are 5 min round the corner from where we live and 5 mins from the boat. They carried out the initial PDI and have looked after the boat ever since (even have the same mechanic!). For this extra cost we do get piece of mind and have a good relationship with their service team.

The main additional costs we have found is that the boat generally last 5 to 6 months between anode replacements. These cost are based on what we paid in 2012. New full set of anodes £300, so by the time you lift scrub, paint the pods change the anodes and go back in the water you’re looking at the best part of £700, every 5 to 6 months.
You obviously also then have the Pod service which is generally annually, but this can go slightly longer depending on use in the year. Last year this cost us £812 all in and was done during one of the lifts. Not sure how this compares to current outdrive service costs? Then you obviously have your normal engine service costs.

With regard to reliability, to date the only issue we have had was actually with the D6’s themselves, nothing to do with the IPS. After about 100 hours we had a water pump shaft sheer. JtB will remember this well as it scuppered our planned trip to Lymington!! This was duly changed under warranty with no fuss. With regard to the IPS itself, as I sit here to today both from a mechanical and software point of view, it hasn’t missed a beat. But we don’t have an auto helm on board which I believe gave a few software issues in the early days? Its useful to remember this Pod technology had been around on commercial vessels for many years now.
The drive train itself is very smooth, the handling is much sharper than our old shaft drive boat and we have a decent scope of boat trims available through large trim tabs to suit the differing sea states. Close quarter manoeuvring is a piece of cake as most people will tried or have witnessed and although I still keep my hand in moving the boat on the sticks, having the reassurance of the joy stick available when you really need, can significantly remove the stress levels when you entering tight spaces in a lot of wind and/or tide.

So in summary yes it does cost a bit more in terms of running costs, but we have been very impressed with it so far. So into our 4th season with IPS we hope this reliability continues, but we are also looking to purchases a slightly bigger boat now and weather we go down the IPS route again will depend very much on what we decide to do. What I would say is that if it the right boat and this is driven by the extra internal space created by IPS, we certainly would be put off by this drive train.

Hope this provides a bit more of a balanced view from an IPS owner’s point of view.

Phil
 
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Thanks for that - that reflects what I had expected re fuel consumption, but I am surprised how quickly the anodes go. Have you got a galvanic isolator fitted ?
 
Illusion, you say you keep your hand in with the sticks, but what I would like to know is what is the failure mode of the smarts for the vectored pods. So if the smarts for vectoring go down, surely you are left with pods that could be in opposite directions and still wouldn't be useful via the sticks. This also assumed that the sticks (even though are fly by wire) will still control the forward/ reverse thrust of a pods when the other smarts have gone down. It strikes me that with IPS there might be a false sense of 'oh I can fall back on the sticks' when in reality if the smarts go down the whole lot will? Is this the case?
 
Deleted User said:
Excellent post, Illusion
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Thanks Mike.

Although opinions are often useful, sometimes it’s easy on this forum to get carried away with people’s opinions that then become judge, jury and executioner of a topic.
I think it would be great if we could get back to having more useful first-hand experience reports from actual owners/users, I also enjoy reading and seeing photos of the cruise reports, so let’s keep them coming as well.

Phil
 
wakeup said:
Illusion, you say you keep your hand in with the sticks, but what I would like to know is what is the failure mode of the smarts for the vectored pods. So if the smarts for vectoring go down, surely you are left with pods that could be in opposite directions and still wouldn't be useful via the sticks. This also assumed that the sticks (even though are fly by wire) will still control the forward/ reverse thrust of a pods when the other smarts have gone down. It strikes me that with IPS there might be a false sense of 'oh I can fall back on the sticks' when in reality if the smarts go down the whole lot will? Is this the case?
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There is a mechanical override tool (haven't really looked at it in too much detail so far), but from what I can make out you attach to the top of the pod from the inside of the boat and it winds the pod round from wherever it is to face forward and then locks it in that position. My assumption is then you have forward and reverse and probably steering from the wheel, so it will get you home.
I suspect someone will be along shortly to confirm, or be good if someone’s actually used or tested this method?
 
Makes sense.

Is the gear engage/disengage the same electro mechanical units as the volvo outdrive units? These have mechnical overrides to select a gear if the electro part dies.
 
Very useful post Illusion. To be fair, I don't think you are putting forward any evidence that IPS intrinsically eats anodes. The anode thing could be caused by your marina berth or a neighbour, for example. Unless you fitted an isolation trannie you would never know for sure that IPS was the cause of anode wear

What do you make of smoothness/vibrations etc of IPS compared to the ph40 or any other boats you're used to?
 
Apparently Volvo and Fairline made a special IPS version of a Phantom 40 some years back. Does anybody know any detailes on how this boat performed. According to the add the top speed is 34 knots and it consumes 3,4 l/sm

http://www.batborsen.se/motorbaatar-603/fairline-phantom-40-1034366

I must admit that I have no experiense of driving an IPS boat but when it comes to heavy flybridge boats having had one with outdrives the whole mid range from 10 - 20 knots was not usable. This is probably due to the weight distribution and with shafts larger diameter props can be installed which improves the efficiency and "bite" at medium speeds. This is an important fallback speed range when the weather gets rough and you have your family and dog etc with you. Also the chines have to be made larger and angled negative to damp heeling in turns on IPS boats. No problem with this except that it could increase pounding in steep seas. Any hands on IPS experience on this would be appreciated.
 
On the previous pls click on "visa alla 27" and you will see nice pictures of the installation. It looks like the engines are installed under the aft deck. And the tunnels are filled.
 
Replying to baylabayla's question about hands on IPS operation and the range of speeds that can be used.

On our Rodman 1250 with IPS there does not seem to be any limitation on choice of speed, certainly no obvious restriction to any band of speeds, just that which is suitable for the conditions.

Most of our experience is in the Irish Sea and the west coast of Scotland and sea states can vary from smooth to really very horrid and we just adjust our speed to suit - anything from 7 knots to 30. We have travelled a lot of miles in the 10 to 20 knot region as conditions or desires dictate, the Rodman hull with IPS seems pretty benign at all speeds.

Hope this helps,
galps.
 
galps said:
Replying to baylabayla's question about hands on IPS operation and the range of speeds that can be used.

On our Rodman 1250 with IPS there does not seem to be any limitation on choice of speed, certainly no obvious restriction to any band of speeds, just that which is suitable for the conditions.

Most of our experience is in the Irish Sea and the west coast of Scotland and sea states can vary from smooth to really very horrid and we just adjust our speed to suit - anything from 7 knots to 30. We have travelled a lot of miles in the 10 to 20 knot region as conditions or desires dictate, the Rodman hull with IPS seems pretty benign at all speeds.

Hope this helps,
galps.
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Thank you for your reply, that is reassuring!
 
jfm said:
Very useful post Illusion. To be fair, I don't think you are putting forward any evidence that IPS intrinsically eats anodes. The anode thing could be caused by your marina berth or a neighbour, for example. Unless you fitted an isolation trannie you would never know for sure that IPS was the cause of anode wear

What do you make of smoothness/vibrations etc of IPS compared to the ph40 or any other boats you're used to?
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Yes this is a stange one as we're actually on the same berth as when we had our P40, but VP tell us the pods do generally cause more anode wear. Its also worth mentioning that the IPS bar anodes are aluminium, these are the ones that seem to wear the quickest.
With regard to your question on smoothness & vibration, the T44 is definitely smoother, quieter with less vibration on a wider range of revs, compared to the P40.

Phil
 
galps said:
Replying to baylabayla's question about hands on IPS operation and the range of speeds that can be used.

On our Rodman 1250 with IPS there does not seem to be any limitation on choice of speed, certainly no obvious restriction to any band of speeds, just that which is suitable for the conditions.

Most of our experience is in the Irish Sea and the west coast of Scotland and sea states can vary from smooth to really very horrid and we just adjust our speed to suit - anything from 7 knots to 30. We have travelled a lot of miles in the 10 to 20 knot region as conditions or desires dictate, the Rodman hull with IPS seems pretty benign at all speeds.

Hope this helps,
galps.
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Fully concur with your thoughts galps. We have had similar experiences with our T44. This was particularly noticeable on one trip through a rather lumpy Alderney Race, we were down at around 10 to 15 knots, with the trims tabs fully down helping the nose punch through the short chop, but the ride was superb and very smooth, other than the odd crash off and into waves.

Phil
 
David of Essex said:
gravygraham said:
Is that your gut feeling David or a statistical fact?


Just gut feeling Graham. If I was in the market for buying a 5 year old FB, I would not consider a IPS boat just my opinion
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+1. IMHO engines/drives run by electronic "brains" are a nightmare on a boat. It's bad enough in the world of cars which in my experience have regular gremlins with electronics. My VW Touareg tells me today it has an inlet manifold problem, but the car is running perfectly. The parking radars are screamoing that I am close to something when I am nowhere near anything! I spent an hour last night at Stanstead airport sitting on an Airbus 319 which couldn't take off due to - and i quote the captain "sorry for the delay but the computers won't talk to each other, which is not an uncommon occurance". After an hour of blokes in hi viz jackets poking around we took off.

These two industries are obviously light years ahead of the boating industry in the use of electronics in their products - and they can't get it to work reliably. The cottage industry of boat manufacture has no chance. The owners will be the ones that pay in the end.
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asteven221 said:
David of Essex said:
These two industries are obviously light years ahead of the boating industry in the use of electronics in their products - and they can't get it to work reliably. The cottage industry of boat manufacture has no chance. The owners will be the ones that pay in the end.
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I have a certain sympathy with that view but I'm afraid that electronics is the way the world is going for all types of machinery, driven by demands for greater fuel efficiency, ease of operation and integration of instrumentation. Yes, in the case of motorboats, it will be the 2nd or 3rd owner of a boat who ends up paying the development costs
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