lw395
Well-Known Member
The main reason certain types of boat are not made is probably that very few people want to buy them?
IOR for Time on Time racing
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flaming
Well-Known Member
That's literally my point! Nobody is making cruiser racers as we know them, as they don't make any money selling them, yet IRC still favours them in smaller sizes.
As plan A (encourage conventional cruiser racer type boats) seems to have failed, as evidenced by falling entry lists and the total lack of new boat options. Why not try something else?
lw395
Well-Known Member
But would people buy smaller racier boats to race on IRC?
Why wouldn't they just buy a J70 if they want a small race boat?
The people actually buying boats with lids in the Uk are mostly charter companies/sailing schools and retirees.
Just who are all these people who want to buy new boats to race on handicap?
If you change the rule significantly, you make all the existing boats obsolete.
That will cause existing owners to either buy a new boat if they can afford it, break away from IRC or move to dayboats.
That might please a few who can chequebook their way to the front of a very small fleet.
But it would probably cause IRC to go the way of IOR worldwide.
In the big picture, how many IRC certs are RORC flogging worldwide? Is that number falling?
Why wouldn't they just buy a J70 if they want a small race boat?
The people actually buying boats with lids in the Uk are mostly charter companies/sailing schools and retirees.
Just who are all these people who want to buy new boats to race on handicap?
If you change the rule significantly, you make all the existing boats obsolete.
That will cause existing owners to either buy a new boat if they can afford it, break away from IRC or move to dayboats.
That might please a few who can chequebook their way to the front of a very small fleet.
But it would probably cause IRC to go the way of IOR worldwide.
In the big picture, how many IRC certs are RORC flogging worldwide? Is that number falling?
Mudisox
Well-Known Member
One aspect that seems to have got lost is the fact that in my heyday we stayed onboard, not just when racing but also when we got to wherever, or even during the regatta.
Keptthe cost down and promoted team bonding.
Needs comfortable berths and saloon however.
IRC just handicaps the boat, so does PY, CHS, Byron and many others.
Keptthe cost down and promoted team bonding.
Needs comfortable berths and saloon however.
IRC just handicaps the boat, so does PY, CHS, Byron and many others.
flaming
Well-Known Member
That isn't actually true. If, for example, we took all the doors off and the table off and left the cushions ashore we would be hit with a rating increase far more than just for the weight we had taken off the boat. If they were just handicapping the boat we'd only have the rating adjusted for the reduction in weight.
flaming
Well-Known Member
It certainly isn't an easy solution. But there will come a point where there simply isn't an existing fleet to protect. I mean, the boats will be out there, they're fiberglass, but they're not coming out to play.
I do look at the fast 40s and think "where the hell did 18 owners for that sort of boat come from?". But you talk to their crews and they grin from ear to ear describing the sailing they've done. And you realise that where they came from is dragging people back to sailing who had left, or persuading them to take the plunge based mainly on how exciting the proposition was.
Can we really say that about cruiser racing right now? I don't think so, I think it's becoming more and more niche.
But what about if the overall cost was about the same as buying and campaigning a First 35. We used to have 15 boats like that on the line every week. But what if the thing put a grin on your face for days. Isn't that a bit more attractive?
I dunno, but I do fear we're getting to a point where there will be nothing to lose by trying it.
Ingwe
Well-Known Member
I think that running costs (especially if you include depreciation) are the main issue in the 30 to 38ft segment of the market, where I am sure there are still people out there with the money to buy boats but the ongoing costs to stay competitive are just too much for them. Just factoring the "big" costs I pay £550/ month to dry berth a 32ft boat in Plymouth (and am sure it would be significantly more in the solent) and you are going to need to change most of your sails at the least every 3 years at a cost of probably something between £15000 to £25000 plus all the normal ongoing maintenance costs entry fees etc. Which means I reckon you are probably looking at allowing a budget of at least £15000 / per year (including depreciation) just to be in the upper mid fleet and there will be campaigns spending a lot more than that. Unfortunately there just aren't that many people around who have that kind of disposable income and actually live near one of the main sailing areas.
You can get more boats out if you can get budgets back under control a good example that has already been brought up is the way that Saltash SC have established their J24 fleet, the owners and the club have effectively got together and said that they are only going to buy the uncompetitive boats up that no one else wants any more, they tidy them up a bit, they anti-foul them and keep them on the club moorings to keep the costs down. I don't know the precise details but I think that the club own 2 of the boats themselves which they are hiring out to attract more owners in. None of these boats would probably come in the top half of an open J24 event which means that a couple of the owners also have a much newer dry sailed J24 to do the bigger events in, but it gives them all close racing each week for relatively little cost.
The other thing that we are trying in Plymouth this year is dual scoring using ORC club and NHC this is being pushed by the Seascape dealer because ORC club handles the sports boats more fairly than IRC because it gives you 3 different ratings for each boat based on wind strength bands so it will be interesting to see how it goes this season.
You can get more boats out if you can get budgets back under control a good example that has already been brought up is the way that Saltash SC have established their J24 fleet, the owners and the club have effectively got together and said that they are only going to buy the uncompetitive boats up that no one else wants any more, they tidy them up a bit, they anti-foul them and keep them on the club moorings to keep the costs down. I don't know the precise details but I think that the club own 2 of the boats themselves which they are hiring out to attract more owners in. None of these boats would probably come in the top half of an open J24 event which means that a couple of the owners also have a much newer dry sailed J24 to do the bigger events in, but it gives them all close racing each week for relatively little cost.
The other thing that we are trying in Plymouth this year is dual scoring using ORC club and NHC this is being pushed by the Seascape dealer because ORC club handles the sports boats more fairly than IRC because it gives you 3 different ratings for each boat based on wind strength bands so it will be interesting to see how it goes this season.
Seajet
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I know of a project to get ' mature ' small cruiser racers together in one place - think it was 2 classes of 70's - 80's type boats - all owned by the one organisation and made available to charter - as far as I recall for a day or a year, whatever.
Sounds a great initiative to me - I was asked not to give details until it's all sorted and all the boats required have been acquired - however a mention of such a thing on this thread seems appropriate, I'm sure the publicity will be forthcoming when it's all sorted.
For larger cruiser / racers, I for one would have loved to see a fleet of Aphrodite 101's, now there's a boat to be proud of, and fun to sail, yet still fine for racing or cruising crews to sleep on - I know they didn't catch on in the UK but they do well elsewhere.
Sounds a great initiative to me - I was asked not to give details until it's all sorted and all the boats required have been acquired - however a mention of such a thing on this thread seems appropriate, I'm sure the publicity will be forthcoming when it's all sorted.
For larger cruiser / racers, I for one would have loved to see a fleet of Aphrodite 101's, now there's a boat to be proud of, and fun to sail, yet still fine for racing or cruising crews to sleep on - I know they didn't catch on in the UK but they do well elsewhere.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Thats correct. Its a consequence of the "arms race" that happens in fixed handicap fleets. Racers want to win and one aspect of the way to do that is to maximise the boat. Pick a boat that is designed purely for racing and spend to add any and all of the bells and whistles that give you an edge. It doesnt matter what the fixed handicap system is, thats your way to succeed.
The irony is that in tidal waters that approach only really works for boats of similar sizes.
The answer is NHC and its system of rating by performance, but that is anathema to the keen IRC man. So on the one hand you have a NHC system that produces ever closer racing. On the other hand you have IRC that not only requires talent to win but also money and a specialised boat. Not surprisingly the numbers who can afford that approach arent great.
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
I believe NHC is modelled quite closely on the Irish ECHO handicap, in which case it is really not the replacement for IRC. It has advantages in encouraging less serious racers to try a bit harder and so does encourage participation and provides a stepping stone to real racing but it simply does not give fair racing between well-sailed boats. And you'd be amazed at the efforts I've seen people making to massage their ECHO handicap.
For all IRC's faults (such as the advantage gained from lugging cushions around the course) it does provide far better racing than ECHO.