INXS member, Tim Farris, loses case and has to pay defendants costs, against charter operator over loss of finger in windlass
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
Unpleasant .
Django Reinhardt seemed to do ok with two paralyzed fingers.
I think many sailors, including me , are rather wary of using power winches on big boats.
Django Reinhardt seemed to do ok with two paralyzed fingers.
I think many sailors, including me , are rather wary of using power winches on big boats.
Frogmogman
Well-known member
Not only from the potential for personal injury. It’s so easy to break stuff with a power winch where something is snagged etc.
In this case it was the windlass rather than a winch.
Sandy
Well-known member
What was he thinking having his hands anywhere near the windlass?
Neeves
Well-known member
Undoubtedly very unpleasant.
Not many charter boats are going to have a manual windlass. It was not a 'big' boat typically they would be 35'
Sandy made the comment - why would you get your hands anywhere near a windlass - or any electrical driven equipment whether windlass or winch.
His problem was that his statement of events was contradictory - if you expect a high payout get your story consistent, accurate and plausible. Secondly if the windlass was not operating correctly (and in my experience they operate - or not) how come you lost a finger. I thought that his legal team appeared to be totally incompetent to allow him to make such a cock up.
We will never know but he seems to have had his hand 'under' the chain and he stood on the retrieve foot switch. Why he had his hand wrapped round the chain is not clear.
Since this incident, I believe, all charter vessels on Pittwater have removed their windlass and charter parties need to operate ground tackle manually or use a courtesy mooring (of which there are many). The water is deep, its a ria, typically 10m but can be 15m and the bottom is slimy mud. Hand retrieval would be hard work and messy
In Australia there is no need for any licence to take out a boat for charter, any size of vessel. There is a suggestion if you charter a vessel - you have a basic understanding and are of average intelligence (I'm not sure I agree).
Jonathan
Not many charter boats are going to have a manual windlass. It was not a 'big' boat typically they would be 35'
Sandy made the comment - why would you get your hands anywhere near a windlass - or any electrical driven equipment whether windlass or winch.
His problem was that his statement of events was contradictory - if you expect a high payout get your story consistent, accurate and plausible. Secondly if the windlass was not operating correctly (and in my experience they operate - or not) how come you lost a finger. I thought that his legal team appeared to be totally incompetent to allow him to make such a cock up.
We will never know but he seems to have had his hand 'under' the chain and he stood on the retrieve foot switch. Why he had his hand wrapped round the chain is not clear.
Since this incident, I believe, all charter vessels on Pittwater have removed their windlass and charter parties need to operate ground tackle manually or use a courtesy mooring (of which there are many). The water is deep, its a ria, typically 10m but can be 15m and the bottom is slimy mud. Hand retrieval would be hard work and messy
In Australia there is no need for any licence to take out a boat for charter, any size of vessel. There is a suggestion if you charter a vessel - you have a basic understanding and are of average intelligence (I'm not sure I agree).
Jonathan
anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-known member
I was looking for suitable INXS song and album titles to make a joke in my usual poor taste. Spoilt for choice...
fredrussell
Well-known member
Never tear us apart?
Sandy
Well-known member
The law of unintended consequences strikes again!
laika
Well-known member
Birdseye
Well-known member
I have often accidentally triggerred the windlass whilst on the foredeck, luckily never with my hands anywhere near the chain. Foot switches are easy to tread on.
No need for a licence here but no doubt sooner or later some charterer will be on the wrong end of a lawsuit for not checking a hirers abilities - probably happened already,
Resolution
Well-known member
It's a real problem how to manage the initial briefing when handing over a boat to charterers. There is just so much information to put across, and you know that much of it will go in one ear and straight out the other.
Frogmogman
Well-known member
Regis Guillemot (who has since sold his charter business to I think, Dream Yacht) used to provide briefings on YouTube for his charter guests to study prior to their arrival, and which could then be referred to as necessary.
I thought it a great idea.
Neeves
Well-known member
We have a problem here with H&S and boat yards. It is increasingly difficult to work on your own yacht in a boatyard unless you carry relevant personal insurance. I assume that boat yards pay a higher premium if they need to insure people who are not employees. You cannot take a yacht into a boat yard without, at least, 3rd party insurance. In theory this means if you want to top up the fuel and have no insurance you should not enter and the yard should be asking for a copy of the insurance before you enter and certainly before you top up - do they ask - No. One boatyard has over come the issue of work on a boat and has a safety video. Frogmogman has some of the answer - the yard here has the video and then a short question and answer - which must be completed, successfully, before they will allow you into the yard to work. You need to complete the exercise whether you have insurance or not and many subcontractors will not work in that specific yard - which really fills you with confidence 
The trouble is that for a yacht there are so many key points. The windlass is a good example - as an owner of a vessel would it ever occur to you that someone would have their hand round a chain adjacent to the gypsy and simultaneously operate the foot switch. Our windlass and the foot switches are well apart - you cannot operate as I suggest but someone could put their hand on the chain at the gypsy and another operate a foot switch - but if you cover this eventuality for every item on a yacht - you have a very long video - and then you need to 'test' that the video has been watched.
Chartering is meant to be relaxation (I think) its not a route to a PhD or Competent Crew.
I had found the case interesting as its local, very, it was an awful accident but not entirely unexpected - so I was interested in the outcome. I approved of the outcome but then I know that windlass are incredibly powerful and treat them with considerable respect. We also have an electric winch, 2 engines, highly flammable gas feeding an oven, hob and water boiler, a couple of monster batteries, the normal running rigging etc etc. The potential for accidents is large. For this reason I am very apprehensive of having friends of friends on our cat - I can make judgement of friends - friends of freinds are a complete unknown. People who come on our cat want to 'help' - I try to keep them in the background. Simple things - they think they are helping when they carry the 4 stroke O/B off the beach and then lay it on its side.....
I learnt very quickly that people love buttons - 'OOh - I wonder what this does' pushes button for electric winch....
Cats unfortunately are very user friendly, all that deck space, they don't heel etc etc - great entertainment,ent platforms - but accidents waiting to happen.
There is no accounting for stupidity and it is impossible to anticipate.
Jonathan
The trouble is that for a yacht there are so many key points. The windlass is a good example - as an owner of a vessel would it ever occur to you that someone would have their hand round a chain adjacent to the gypsy and simultaneously operate the foot switch. Our windlass and the foot switches are well apart - you cannot operate as I suggest but someone could put their hand on the chain at the gypsy and another operate a foot switch - but if you cover this eventuality for every item on a yacht - you have a very long video - and then you need to 'test' that the video has been watched.
Chartering is meant to be relaxation (I think) its not a route to a PhD or Competent Crew.
I had found the case interesting as its local, very, it was an awful accident but not entirely unexpected - so I was interested in the outcome. I approved of the outcome but then I know that windlass are incredibly powerful and treat them with considerable respect. We also have an electric winch, 2 engines, highly flammable gas feeding an oven, hob and water boiler, a couple of monster batteries, the normal running rigging etc etc. The potential for accidents is large. For this reason I am very apprehensive of having friends of friends on our cat - I can make judgement of friends - friends of freinds are a complete unknown. People who come on our cat want to 'help' - I try to keep them in the background. Simple things - they think they are helping when they carry the 4 stroke O/B off the beach and then lay it on its side.....
I learnt very quickly that people love buttons - 'OOh - I wonder what this does' pushes button for electric winch....
Cats unfortunately are very user friendly, all that deck space, they don't heel etc etc - great entertainment,ent platforms - but accidents waiting to happen.
There is no accounting for stupidity and it is impossible to anticipate.
Jonathan
dansaskip
Well-known member
That is why you are supposed to have switch to disable the footswitches or any other windlass switches from accidental operation. Then you only make the switches operational when actually anchoring.
dankilb
Well-known member
I’m sure a ‘ticket’ is needed in South Australia. My dad, brother and step bro took their (theory only) exams the other week.
But my father was previously able to charter in Queensland with his ‘90s YM theory and diesel maintenance tickets!
johnalison
Well-known member
Not only that but, like on most boats, my switches have covers which should protect them most of the time, even if not infallibly.
Neeves
Well-known member
If you want to use your own a MoBO, even a large dinghy (I think for a small engined dinghy you don't need a ticket) - you need a ticket - its a simple tick box test. Strangely you don't need a ticket for a sailboat. If they were available I could take out a 60' yacht - no ticket required.
If a ticket were required in any of the areas with decent sail charter fleets - the industry would fall over. The industry does try to identify if the charter party knows what they are doing - but having viewed charter boats - the assessment is very poor (and for that reason we don't go to the Whitsundays any more)..
I had a ticket - I thought one day I might want to buy, or use, a MoBO. The ticket needs to be paid for each year. I found that after over 20 years sailing in Oz I have never once been asked to produce my licence and have simply discontinued paying. Our yacht insurance does not demand a ticket/licence.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
I actually thought deck switches all had covers, all our deck switches have covers and I confess I've not seen anything else - it seems I need to get out more.
We have two types of cover. Our windlass foot switches have a hinged lid - you need to flip open the lid to access the switch. Once the lid is 'open' - if you leave it open you can inadvertantly stand on it. But you ,might break the open cover if you stand on it. Our electric winch has 'half' covers - the button itself is recessed into the cover and if you stand on it you simply stand on the cover - if you want to operate the winch you need to push the button 'inside' the hole in the cover. Our engine start demands two buttons being operated, one after the other - they are a bit more idiot proof.
Not perfect and does not discourage the inquisitive from being idiots.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
A summary and a minor update
‘Very disappointed’: INXS guitarist Tim Farriss loses $1.2m severed-finger case
Jonathan
‘Very disappointed’: INXS guitarist Tim Farriss loses $1.2m severed-finger case
Jonathan
bedouin
Well-known member
Basically it seems that the judge didn't believe his story so the question of whether the owner would have been liable had the story been correct did not come up.